vision2020
Re: Very funny!: Re: Every Ethical System Subject to Relativist Problems
Thank you. I appreciate the clarification.
Tony
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ted Moffett" <ted_moffett@hotmail.com>
To: <vision2020@moscow.com>
Cc: <canorder@moscow.com>; <mohrc@moscow.com>
Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 7:31 PM
Subject: Re: Very funny!: Re: Every Ethical System Subject to Relativist
Problems
>
> Tony et. al.
>
> I'm the man with a few questions for some who have posted on vision2020
that
> they have the ULTIMATE ABSOLUTE MORAL STANDARD
> everyone should follow, and that if someone disagrees with this "absolute"
> standard, they are advocating relativistic moral chaos and anarchy. My
> questions suggest relativistic cracks in the edifice of the so called
> "absolute" moral standards advocated.
>
> I'm not the man who will willingly let my questions be diverted by other
> different questions, unless you are VERY funny, in which case you may
> succeed! Lenny Bruce could turn the "absolute" morals of society upside
> down, and be gut splitting hilarious in the process.
>
> Ted
>
>
> >From: "Tony Mohr" <mohrc@moscow.com>
> >Reply-To: "Tony Mohr" <mohrc@moscow.com>
> >To: "Ted Moffett" <ted_moffett@hotmail.com>, <vision2020@moscow.com>
> >CC: <canorder@moscow.com>
> >Subject: Re: Very funny!: Re: Every Ethical System Subject to Relativist
> >Problems
> >Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 18:36:34 -0700
> >
> >Ok,Ted
> >I'm trying to be funny. What are you trying to be ? The man with the
> >diagnosis or the man with the solution ?
> > Tony
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Ted Moffett" <ted_moffett@hotmail.com>
> >To: <vision2020@moscow.com>
> >Cc: <canorder@moscow.com>; <mohrc@moscow.com>
> >Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 5:56 PM
> >Subject: Re: Very funny!: Re: Every Ethical System Subject to Relativist
> >Problems
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Tony et. al.
> > >
> > > I wonder what you really think about my main thesis, that relativistic
> > > issues are inescapably involved in any ethical system. Maybe you are
> >trying
> > > to be funny, but how you answer this question is central to many of
the
> > > problems humanity is facing.
> > >
> > > Ted
> > >
> > > >From: "Tony Mohr" <mohrc@moscow.com>
> > > >Reply-To: "Tony Mohr" <mohrc@moscow.com>
> > > >To: "Ted Moffett" <ted_moffett@hotmail.com>, <vision2020@moscow.com>
> > > >CC: <canorder@moscow.com>
> > > >Subject: Re: Very funny!: Re: Every Ethical System Subject to
> >Relativist
> > > >Problems
> > > >Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 20:55:29 -0700
> > > >
> > > >Hey Ted & Others,
> > > >It was meant to be funny, Pretty funny stuff anyways.
> > > >Tony
> > > >
> > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > >From: "Ted Moffett" <ted_moffett@hotmail.com>
> > > >To: <vision2020@moscow.com>
> > > >Cc: <canorder@moscow.com>; <mohrc@moscow.com>
> > > >Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 7:19 PM
> > > >Subject: Very funny!: Re: Every Ethical System Subject to Relativist
> > > >Problems
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Hey Tony and others:
> > > > >
> > > > > There is no connection between your reply and what I wrote. But
> >your
> > > >reply
> > > > > is funny, I guess. I never even remotely suggested the actions
you
> > > >outline.
> > > > >
> > > > > Ted
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >From: "Tony Mohr" <mohrc@moscow.com>
> > > > > >Reply-To: "Tony Mohr" <mohrc@moscow.com>
> > > > > >To: "Ted Moffett" <ted_moffett@hotmail.com>,
> ><vision2020@moscow.com>
> > > > > >CC: <canorder@moscow.com>
> > > > > >Subject: Re: Every Ethical System Subject to Relativist Problems
> > > > > >Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 07:47:54 -0700
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Lets just tear up all the rule books, burn everything anyone
> >percieves
> > > >as
> > > >"
> > > > > >religous ", eliminate the police force & let everyone
> > > > > >live in " harmony" doing what is right & true in thier heart of
> >hearts
> > > >&
> > > > > >see
> > > > > >how that warm fuzzy goes...........
> > > > > >Tony Mohr
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > > > >From: "Ted Moffett" <ted_moffett@hotmail.com>
> > > > > >To: <vision2020@moscow.com>
> > > > > >Cc: <canorder@moscow.com>
> > > > > >Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 6:06 PM
> > > > > >Subject: Re: Every Ethical System Subject to Relativist Problems
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Visionaries:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > There are some who have exaggerated and misstated what I said
> >about
> > > > > >human
> > > > > > > feelings and common sense ethics. Let me explain in some
detail
> > > >what
> > > >I
> > > > > >mean
> > > > > > > about human feelings in the context of this debate on ethics
and
> > > > > >relativism
> > > > > > > vs absolutism, and expand more on why I think relativism
effects
> >all
> > > > > >ethical
> > > > > > > systems.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > To start with the latter issue first,
> > > > > > > I clearly stated that I am aware of the difficulties in
proving
> > > >ultimate
> > > > > > > right and wrong in ANY ETHICAL SYSTEM! You have similar
logical
> > > > > >problems
> > > > > > > (relativism among them) with proving your ethical system is
> >absolute
> > > >and
> > > > > > > true as anyone does, no matter what they claim is the source
of
> > > >their
> > > > > > > ethical system, be it the Bible, the US Constitution, or
> >guidelines
> > > > > >based
> > > > > >on
> > > > > > > human feelings. Let me explain.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Consider the issue of the death penalty. There is major
> > > >disagreement
> > > > > >within
> > > > > > > the range of views expressed by Christians on this issue.
Some
> > > > > >Christians
> > > > > > > are nearly pacifists in applying the teachings of Christ and
the
> > > > > >Commandment
> > > > > > > "Thou Shall Not Kill" to the death penalty! They ABSOLUTELY
> >regard
> > > >it
> > > > > >as
> > > > > > > wrong. Other Christians support the death penalty and will
> >quote
> > > >other
> > > > > > > principles of ethics from the Christian tradition to support
the
> > > >death
> > > > > > > penalty. They ABSOLUTELY regard it as right. WHAT IS YOUR
> > > >STANDARD?
> > > > > >Prove
> > > > > > > to me that you have the ultimate answer to the quandary
> >Christians
> > > >find
> > > > > > > themselves in regarding the death penalty, and why YOUR
STANDARD
> > > >SHOULD
> > > > > >BE
> > > > > > > BINDING? If you pick the wrong ethical action and it is
against
> > > >God's
> > > > > >will
> > > > > > > your standard will be false and is not therefore not binding,
> > > >according
> > > > > >to
> > > > > > > your assumptions.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > These are some questions asked by some in this debate to
stymie
> >the
> > > > > > > "relativists," but ironically they apply just as well to those
> > > >asking
> > > > > >the
> > > > > > > questions. This same relativistic problem exists among
> >Christians
> > > >on
> > > > > > > homosexuality. You can find Christian churches that do not
> >condemn
> > > > > > > homosexuals as sinners. They have one interpretation of
> >Christian
> > > > > >ethics.
> > > > > > > You know with what fervor other Christians condemn
homosexuality
> >as
> > > >a
> > > > > >major
> > > > > > > sin. Again we have a relativistic debate WITHIN CHRISTIANITY
> > > >ITSELF.
> > > > > >Why
> > > > > > > should I believe that one side or the other has the ultimate
> >answer
> > > >on
> > > > > >this
> > > > > > > issue of homosexuality? WHAT IS YOUR STANDARD AND WHY SHOULD
IT
> >BE
> > > > > >BINDING
> > > > > > > ON ME?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > And of course there is the problem of proving one Religion to
be
> > > >more
> > > > > >true
> > > > > > > and absolute than another. Usually the claim is made that
what
> > > >makes
> > > > > >one
> > > > > > > religion absolute and another not is the theory of
"revelation."
> > > >God's
> > > > > >word
> > > > > > > is revealed truly to the true prophet or representative of
God,
> >and
> > > > > >falsely
> > > > > > > to the false prophet. This is how religious absolutists
"PROVE"
> > > >there
> > > > > >is
> > > > > >no
> > > > > > > ethical relativism in their system.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > How do you prove who is or is not a true divine revealer of
> >God's
> > > >word?
> > > > > > > WHAT IS YOUR STANDARD? You are using circular logic when you
> >use
> > > > > > > Christianities principles and beliefs to prove itself
absolute.
> > > > > >Muhammad
> > > > > > > was a false prophet? How can you prove this? If I am a
believer
> >in
> > > > > >Muhammad
> > > > > > > as a divine prophet, why should your standard that the
religion
> > > >Islam
> > > > > >based
> > > > > > > on his teachings is false be BINDING ON ANYONE? Can you prove
> >that
> > > > > >Muhammad
> > > > > > > was not divinely inspired? You can put two scholars of
Religion
> > > >from
> > > > > >Islam
> > > > > > > and Christianity in a room and the debate on the divine
> >revelation
> > > >of
> > > > > >the
> > > > > > > Koran vs the Bible etc. will rage on and on. Belief in the
> >"proof"
> > > > > >provided
> > > > > > > will certainly be dependent on previous decisions of faith!
> >Doug
> >W.
> > > >did
> > > > > >not
> > > > > > > respond to this problem in his reply to my vision2020 posts on
> >these
> > > > > >issues.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Now regarding the "common sense ethics" issue,
> > > > > > > what is the problem with pointing out that for the vast
majority
> >of
> > > > > >people
> > > > > > > friendship and love are preferable to killing and hatred? Do
> >you
> > > >think
> > > > > >this
> > > > > > > is a false statement? This statement given as a basis for
> >"common
> > > >sense
> > > > > > > ethics" is not as "provincial," as Doug W. suggests. In
> >cultures
> > > >all
> > > > > >over
> > > > > > > the world representing many religions there are laws against
> >murder.
> > > > > >Are
> > > > > > > you against letting people determine their own ethical
standards
> >at
> > > >the
> > > > > > > ballot box rather than from some imposed "overarching
> >authority?"
> > > >Are
> > > > > >you
> > > > > > > afraid that if we determined laws to govern society by the
vote,
> > > >that
> > > > > >people
> > > > > > > would vote for killing, rape, lying, stealing, fraud and
general
> > > >mayhem
> > > > > >as
> > > > > >a
> > > > > > > good basis for society? I think perhaps you have a lack of
> >faith
> >in
> > > >the
> > > > > > > good sense of average people. Not a comforting point of view
> >for
> > > > > >someone
> > > > > > > living in a Democracy. The fact that there are mass murderers
> >in
> > > >the
> > > > > >world
> > > > > > > does not prove that common sense ethics are totally worthless,
> >as
> > > >Doug
> > > > > >W.
> > > > > > > suggests, anymore than witch burning and the Inquisition
proves
> >that
> > > > > > > Christian based ethics are worthless.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > No one is determining that MY common sense ethic is the one
> >everyone
> > > > > >should
> > > > > > > follow. I did not write a single law currently on the books
in
> >the
> > > >USA.
> > > > > > > But you can be assured that some of the laws on the books were
> > > >written
> > > > > >by
> > > > > > > the "common sense ethics" of some legislator or judge
somewhere!
> > > >You
> > > > > >must
> > > > > > > admit this is true in some cases! In reality right now for
both
> >of
> > > >us
> > > > > >what
> > > > > > > is determining the laws we live by is a complex web of
religious
> >and
> > > > > > > governmental traditions, the US Constitution and amendments
> >etc.,
> > > >court,
> > > > > > > legislative and executive decisions, and law enforcement
> >actions,
> > > >many
> > > > > >of
> > > > > > > which are contradictory and controversial. Most people find
> >some
> > > >laws
> > > > > >to
> > > > > >be
> > > > > > > against their values. Welcome to the real world of democracy
> >where
> > > > > > > compromise and disagreement both work hand in hand to attempt
to
> > > >come
> > > >up
> > > > > > > with a system that tries to make the most people happy but
ends
> >up
> > > >not
> > > > > > > completely pleasing anyone. This system has taken human
beings
> > > > > >thousands
> > > > > >of
> > > > > > > years to develop, and many people think it is the best
approach
> >to
> > > > > > > organizing society, with all the conflicts and disagreements
> >among
> > > >human
> > > > > > > beings that are unavoidable.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The claim that there is an absolute ethical standard that is
> >without
> > > > > > > contradiction or cases involving relative issues is a grand
> >dream
> > > >which
> > > > > >as
> > > > > > > far as I can see is just that: A DREAM, NOT REALITY.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > But back to human feelings..... As a matter of fact, I am
> > > >completely
> > > > > > > correct in my statement about human feelings being the basis
for
> > > >many
> > > > > >human
> > > > > > > actions, not some "overarching authority!" There are people
who
> > > >will
> > > > > >help
> > > > > > > others (for example, pull them out of a burning house, or jump
> >in
> >a
> > > > > >river
> > > > > >to
> > > > > > > save someone drowning) in moments of need who are not
compelled
> >to
> > > >do
> > > >so
> > > > > >in
> > > > > > > their own minds by any law or ethical rule or fear of
> >consequences
> > > >in
> > > > > >this
> > > > > > > life or any other you care to imagine. Why do they do this?
> > > >Because
> > > >of
> > > > > > > human feelings of empathy and compassion! They don't sit back
> >and
> > > > > >calculate
> > > > > > > how their actions are compelled by some ultimate overarching
> >ethical
> > > > > > > authority. They act directly and quickly based on a feeling
to
> > > >help.
> > > > > >These
> > > > > > > cases are well documented. Does this mean you can build an
> >ethical
> > > > > >system
> > > > > > > dealing with all cases on just people responding to their
> >feelings
> > > >at
> > > > > >the
> > > > > > > moment? Of course not! It is clear that there are cases, no
> >matter
> > > > > >what
> > > > > > > your ethical principles, when the right ethical choice will
mean
> > > >going
> > > > > > > against the impulses of emotion or feeling.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Ted
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >From: Brian Gibbs <canorder@moscow.com>
> > > > > > > >To: "Ted Moffett" <ted_moffett@hotmail.com>
> > > > > > > >Subject: Re: Every Ethical System Subject to Relativist
> >Problems!
> > > > > > > >Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 08:48:04 -0700
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >Hi Ted,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >It never ceases to amaze me that the folks that want to
> >criticize
> > > > > > > >Christians for having an absolute standard, refuse to
> >acknowledge
> > > >that
> > > > > > > >their own standards of "ethical conduct [be] based on human
> > > >feelings"
> > > > > > > >allows ANYONE to do WHATEVER they want. Just because they
> >"feel"
> > > >like
> > > > > >it.
> > > > > > > >You are doing just what you accuse the Christians of doing.
You
> > > >can't
> > > > > >say
> > > > > > > >that a person has to be nice. You are basing your standards
on
> > > > > >feelings.
> > > > > > > >Everyone has different feelings. If your standard is always
> >what
> > > >YOU
> > > > > >feel,
> > > > > > > >who's to stop ANYONE (let's say a man in this case) who
thinks
> >it's
> > > > > >okay
> > > > > >to
> > > > > > > >walk up down in the Palouse Mall without any clothes on, from
> >doing
> > > >so?
> > > > > >Or
> > > > > > > >from lynching blacks, reds, greens, or whites? After all, "It
> >is
> > > >what
> > > > > >they
> > > > > > > >feel, not what they think, not rules imposed by some
> >overarching
> > > > > > > >authority!" And who determines that your "common sense ethic"
> >is
> > > >the
> > > > > >one
> > > > > > > >ALL of us should follow? As soon as you say we are going to
> >with
> > > >this
> > > > > >one
> > > > > > > >and not that one, you have set up a standard. And so if MY
> >standard
> > > >is
> > > > > > > >different than yours, who are you to say that we have to go
> >with
> > > >yours
> > > > > >and
> > > > > > > >not mine? As Douglas asked in his post..."But if you have a
> >fixed
> > > > > >standard,
> > > > > > > >then please tell us what it is, and why it is binding on the
> >rest
> > > >of
> > > > > >us?"
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >Brian
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >At 11:47 PM 8/1/02 +0000, you wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >>Douglas et. al.
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >>Round and round we go...
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >>Douglas's ethical absolutes have no more logical and factual
> >basis
> > > >for
> > > > > > > >>being true "absolutes" than his faith that they are! In
fact
> >the
> > > > > > > >>Christian standards of ethical conduct are also relative to
> >your
> > > > > > > >>interpretation of the Bible and whatever theological
> >assumptions
> > > > > >related
> > > > > > > >>to Christianity you happen to believe in. You can find
> >numerous
> > > >sects
> > > > > >of
> > > > > > > >>Christianity, now and throughout history, with significantly
> > > >differing
> > > > > > > >>ethical standards, that will argue or have argued vehemently
> >that
> > > >they
> > > > > >are
> > > > > > > >>the true representatives of Christianity, and the other
> >Christian
> > > > > >sects
> > > > > > > >>are not. There are Christian groups who advocate extreme
> >racist
> > > >or
> > > > > >sexist
> > > > > > > >>views, are there not? And they claim they have the absolute
> > > >truth,
> > > >do
> > > > > > > >>they not?
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >>How do you decide which group has the correct view? We are
> >back
> > > >to
> > > > > > > >>"gumby" relativism, though the true believers will say they
> >have
> >a
> > > > > >hotline
> > > > > > > >>to God that makes their particular view the "true" one. The
> >claim
> > > >of
> > > > > > > >>revelation from God is the lynch pin that guarantees the
> >absolutes
> > > >of
> > > > > > > >>Christianity.
> > > > > > > >>But there are numerous claims, Christian and non-Christian,
to
> > > >have
> > > > > >the
> > > > > > > >>true revealed standards of God, and these standards differ.
> >With
> > > >this
> > > > > > > >>logic I can claim to have a hotline to God and ethical
> > > >"absolutes,"
> > > > > >and
> > > > > > > >>justify anything I want to do, any kind of "holy" war or
> >campaign
> > > >of
> > > > > > > >>salvation against the unbelievers, which has happened
numerous
> > > >times
> > > > > >in
> > > > > > > >>the history of Christianity.
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >>No, Douglas, the US Constitution is no more subject to the
> > > >criticism
> > > > > >that
> > > > > > > >>it is hopelessly relativistic than your own so called
> >"absolute"
> > > > > >documents
> > > > > > > >>you refer to for your "absolute" values. Your claim that
the
> >US
> > > > > > > >>Constitution could evolve to where lynching blacks becomes a
> >civic
> > > > > >duty
> > > > > >is
> > > > > > > >>way over the top and not reasonably defensible. And on the
> >other
> > > >side
> > > > > >of
> > > > > > > >>this issue, there are many statements in the Bible that lead
> >to
> > > >some
> > > > > > > >>rather fantastic and disturbing ethical consequences! And
> > > >Christians
> > > > > >use
> > > > > > > >>these statements to justify extreme views!
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >>We are all in the same quandary, I am afraid, insofar as no
> >one
> > > >can
> > > > > >PROVE
> > > > > > > >>their ethical standards are absolute and unchallengeable.
But
> > > >what
> > > >is
> > > > > > > >>wrong with a common sense ethics that simply points out that
> >for
> > > >the
> > > > > >vast
> > > > > > > >>majority of people, friendship and love are preferable to
> >killing
> > > >and
> > > > > > > >>hatred, that honesty leads to a better society than one
based
> >on
> > > > > >everyone
> > > > > > > >>lying, that respecting the feelings of others leads to a
> >higher
> > > > > >quality
> > > > > >of
> > > > > > > >>relationship that one based on domination and exploitation?
> >And
> > > >can't
> > > > > > > >>these notions of ethical conduct be based on human feelings
> >rather
> > > > > >than
> > > > > > > >>abstract principles derived from documents? Anyways, this
is
> >just
> > > >a
> > > > > > > >>suggestion regarding what really keeps people from being
ugly
> >and
> > > > > >nasty!
> > > > > > > >>It is what they feel, not what they think, not rules imposed
> >by
> > > >some
> > > > > > > >>overarching authority!
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >>Ted
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >>>From: Douglas <dougwils@moscow.com>
> > > > > > > >>>To: vision2020@moscow.com
> > > > > > > >>>Subject: Catching up
> > > > > > > >>>Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 12:56:46 -0700
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >
> > >>_________________________________________________________________
> > > > > > > >>Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device:
> > > >http://mobile.msn.com
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >>Received: from mc2-f31.law16.hotmail.com ([65.54.237.38]) by
> > > > > > > >>mc2-s2.law16.hotmail.com with Microsoft
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> > > > > > > >>Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 12:56:46 -0700
> > > > > > > >>To: vision2020@moscow.com
> > > > > > > >>From: Douglas <dougwils@moscow.com>
> > > > > > > >>Subject: Catching up
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> > > > > > > >>FILETIME=[94434BB0:01C238CB]
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >>Dear visionaries,
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >>Just got back in town after a week out, and had a fun time
> > > >catching
> > > > > >up.
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >>I agree with Kenton (!) about one post a day. What a good
deal
> > > >that
> > > > > >would
> > > > > > > >>be. Although I am a little concerned that a liberal wants to
> >work
> > > >out
> > > > > >this
> > > > > > > >>kind of a solution without the intervention of a regulatory
> > > >agency,
> > > >I
> > > > > > > >>still support it, and after my comments below that's the
last
> >you
> > > >will
> > > > > > > >>hear from me today.
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >>If our constitution, laws, and ordinances are all evolving,
> >and
> > > >there
> > > > > >is
> > > > > > > >>no over-arching ethical standard, then we have no basis for
> >folks
> > > >in
> > > > > >one
> > > > > > > >>part of the evolutionary process showing indignation at the
> > > > > >inhabitants
> > > > > >of
> > > > > > > >>another portion of the process, regardless of what they are
> >doing
> > > >at
> > > > > >that
> > > > > > > >>other time. And if that is the case then we need to ditch
all
> >our
> > > > > > > >>faux-indignation about Chinese folks having to live out of
> >town,
> > > >women
> > > > > >not
> > > > > > > >>voting, segregation of races, and women having to keep their
> > > >shirts
> > > > > >on.
> > > > > > > >>Who cares?
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >>If you are not relativists, then tell us what the standard
is.
> > > >Such
> > > >a
> > > > > > > >>standard would have to be better than your living elastic
> >gumby
> > > > > > > >>constitution, because a standard that can evolve into any
> >other
> > > > > >standard
> > > > > > > >>isn't a standard at all. A constitution which could
> >incrementally
> > > > > >evolve
> > > > > > > >>to the point where lynching blacks would be a civic
> >responsibility
> > > >and
> > > > > > > >>duty is personally offensive to me, and I cannot believe
that
> >you
> > > >all
> > > > > > > >>persist in defending this. Why do you defend this?
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >>But if you have a fixed standard, then please tell us what
it
> >is,
> > > >and
> > > > > >why
> > > > > > > >>it is binding on the rest of us.
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >>If you are open relativists, then open wide and swallow the
> > > >reductio.
> > > > > > > >>After all, it is your cooking, not ours.
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >>And this ties in to my one comment on the misrepresentations
> >of
> >my
> > > > > >writing
> > > > > > > >>in Credenda. What I am represented as advocating, I actually
> > > > > >repudiate.
> > > > > > > >>But those who accuse me of this form of abusive sexism have
no
> > > >basis
> > > > > >for
> > > > > > > >>being indignant over any form of sexism. So, suppose me
guilty
> >of
> > > > > > > >>maintaining that a wife should just lie back and take it.
So?
> > > >Suppose
> > > > > >that
> > > > > > > >>I do advocate spouse rape. Don't you?
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> >_________________________________________________________________
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> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _________________________________________________________________
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> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
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