Re: Large Classes in UI's basic writing course

["Dale Courtney" <dmcourtn@moscow.com>]

Jack Wenders wrote: "Well, just because UI gives credit for a course doesn't mean that it is not a college prep, high school, course. Look at the math dept's offerings below 170, most of which my son will take in high school."

 

Tom, just what would a course be numbered if it were a "refresher" (since the courses don't go below 100 -- or do they?)?

 

You assert that this is not a high school level course. It would never have occurred to me that teaching "Two ways to join a sentence" and "The possessive apostrophe" would make it over a high school level course.  (http://www.its.uidaho.edu/english/comp/Engl_101/)

 

I guess that's because my 4th grader learned these already at Logos.  I would expect that a college-level course would start with something higher than 4th graders have known for years.

 

But, then again, that's government education for you...

 

Dale Courtney

Moscow, Idaho

----- Original Message -----

From: Tom Hansen

To: Ron Force ; vision2020@moscow.com

Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 1:56 PM

Subject: RE: Large Classes in UI's basic writing course

Greetings Visionaires -

 

Having graduated from North Idaho College and the University of Idaho, I can tell you that English 101 is NOT a high school level course.  "101" alone tells you that it is a college freshman course.  A certain amount of credits in "core" courses are required to graduate from both North Idaho College and the University of Idaho.  Among these core courses are English courses.  I am certain that English 101 satisfies 3 credits of English requirements of these core courses.

 

Similarly, English 101 is a prerequisite for many other courses.  The extremely high number of freshmen enrolled in a freshman English class that is among the core courses should NOT, in any fashion, be understood to imply the lack of skills of the University of Idaho freshman class.  Quite to the contrary.  The incoming freshman class includes more 4.0 high school GPA students than any freshman class in a long time.

 

Take care,

 

Tom Hansen

(NIC, Class of '92)

(U of I, Class of '96)

 

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Love like you've never been hurt.
Dance like nobody's watching.

- Author Unknown
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-----Original Message-----
From: Ron Force [mailto:rforce@moscow.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 12:51 PM
To: vision2020@moscow.com
Subject: RE: Large Classes in UI's basic writing course

I guess I would question the assertion that English 101 is high school english. To test out of 101, you need a score of 570 on the SAT, which is at the 75th percentile (top 25%). To test out of both 101-102, you need to be at the 95th percentile (top 5%). These percentiles are for all those taking the SATs nationally.  Presumably, many of the top scorers go on to highly selective institutions. Less than half of all high school graduates take the SAT.

 

The average SAT verbal score for entering freshmen at the UI in 2000 was 549.

********************************************
Ron Force                 rforce@moscow.com

Moscow Idaho USA
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-----Original Message-----
From: Dale Courtney [mailto:dmcourtn@moscow.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 11:16 PM
To: vision2020@moscow.com
Subject: Large Classes in UI's basic writing course

    The following from Jack Wenders concerning large classes in UI's basic writing course. Jack is an professor emeritus of economics at UI.

---

      Jim Fisher worries about large classes in UI's basic writing course, English 101. The more important issue is why this course exists.

    Students are assigned to English 101 if they score below roughly the 60th percentile on their SAT or ACT verbal tests. Those on the still lower end go into an even more basic course, English 90. At present, 823 students are enrolled in 34 sections English 101, with 43 on wait lists. English 90 has 160 students in four sections.

    This means is that UI has presently enrolled some 1,026 students in essentially high school, or lower, English courses. At the end of July, about 1,200 freshmen had registered at UI.

 

    This problem is not confined to English. UI's math department presently offers 5 or 6 college credit courses that don't count toward a major, and all of which are essentially college prep, high school courses. There are currently 1,769 students enrolled in these. 

 

    Rather than squabble about the difficulty in teaching these courses effectively, more fundamental questions are: What is a university doing teaching high school courses and giving college credit for them? Why does the public, and the Legislature, tolerate a public school system that graduates and sends to college large numbers of students not ready for real college work?

 

    UI brags, with a straight face, that 54% of freshmen graduate within six years. Given the preparation of incoming students, it is not surprising that 46% disappear. What is surprising is that UI still calls itself a four-year college.

    Fisher's knee-jerk answer is send more money to everyone. But in the past half century, real per pupil spending in public schools has increased by six times, and pupils per teacher have fallen from about 27 to 15. Yet student performance has declined. There are other things going on here, but whatever they are, more money has not been, and will not be, the answer.

Jack Wenders
Moscow

 

John T. Wenders
Professor of Economics
University of Idaho
2266 Westview Drive
Moscow, ID  83843