Re: Unidentified subject!

[sec@moscow.com]

> At 09:31 AM 9/19/99 -0800, you wrote:
> >Your points make a lotta sense and a guide to citizen thinking about the
> >place of lethal weapons in our lay society. Except for guns for hunting
> >purposes and perhaps a small household weapon -- all of which should be
> >registered within 24 hours of purchase -- individuals should not have
> >legal access to any other kind of gun w/o law enforcement control. 
> 
> And who decides which "small household weapon" is OK to have?
> 
> I do hate to mention this, but the Constitution--the very social contract
> upon which this nation should use as its foundation--never even mentions
> hunting.  The most skipped over part of it is the Preamble to the Bill of
> Rights.  In fact, many printings never mention this short clause.  It
> states why we have the Bill of Rights.  It is not because we want to seem
> sophisticated and look cool.  It is to protect the citizenry from a
> government that no longer is of the people.  Basically, we have freedom of
> speech to talk about the government and to protest it if it is doing bad.
> Right to a jury trial to ignore laws (jury lawlessnes) that are bad.
> Protection from quartering of troops, from incriminating one's self, from
> illegal search and seizure.  And, ultimately, the right to own firearms in
> case all of the above fail--we have the ability to  overthrow a bad
> government!!  "Legitimate sporting use" and other phrases like that are an
> absolute assault on the Constitution!  We have the right to own firearms
> so that we can overthrow the government--no other reason.  
> 
> Marc
> Still believing in the Constitution

"in CONGRESS, July 4, 1776.
The Unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united states of America"

"When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for 
one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected 
them with another, and to assume amongst the powers of the 
earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of Nature 
and of Nature's God entitles them a decent respect to the opinions 
of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which 
impel them to the separation"

we hold these truths to be self evident that all men are created 
equal, that they are endowed by there Creator with certain 
unalienable right, that amongst these are Life, Liberty and the 
pursuit of happiness. that to secure these rights, Governments are 
instituted among men deriving there their just powers from the 
consent of the governed. that whenever any Form of Government 
becomes destructive to these ends it is the right of the People to 
alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying it's 
foundation on such principals and organizing it's powers in such 
form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and 
Happiness."

ever wonder why the Declaration of Independance has no standing 
in Law??

Stan

RReceived: from whale.fsr.net (slist@whale.fsr.net [207.141.26.9]) by fsr.com (8.8.8/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA25708 for <vision2020-archive@archive.fsr.com>; Mon, 20 Sep 1999 10:44:53 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (from slist@localhost)
	by whale.fsr.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA21537
	for vision2020-archive@archive.fsr.com; Mon, 20 Sep 1999 10:41:58 -0700 (PDT)
	(envelope-from vision2020-request@moscow.com)
Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 10:41:58 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <199909201741.KAA21152@whale.fsr.net>
From: sec@moscow.com
To: Vision2020@moscow.com
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 10:40:59 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Subject: Re: Guns
Priority: normal
In-reply-to: <002801bf037e$33f637c0$a23bbccc@fred>
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d)
Resent-Message-ID: <"TsqYu.A.ZLF.LHn53"@whale.fsr.net>
Resent-From: vision2020@moscow.com
X-Mailing-List: <vision2020@moscow.com> archive/latest/3684
X-Loop: vision2020@moscow.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vision2020-request@moscow.com

> Okay, Ry, you tell me how China, swimming pools and helmets relate to the
> oversupply of guns.

who says there is an over supply? ever hear of "supply and demand"?

as for Swimming pools and Helmates, you claim that firearms 
should be controled or baned because they cause so many  
deaths, yet other things that cause more deaths should be left 
alone. kinda takes the credibility out of your argumet.

 > Fact is, 30,000 people in America were killed by firearms in the last
> year.  Three times as many were permanently injured. For 18 to 25 year
> olds gun violence is the number one killer--used to be automobile
> accidents.

please cite your data, where did these numbers come from (not 
saying your wrong, just saying I want to know where the data 
comes from, that goes to credibility)

> Also, the keeping of firearms (garunteed in the consitituion) is not the
> question of the lawsuits, but the irresponsible manufacturing and supply
> is.

and car companies don't? do you know any road in America where 
it is legal to go 120 miles an hour? every day I see Car ads that 
show cars doing all sorts of dangerous things, with smal text briefly 
flashed on the screen saying "don't do this" isin't that irrresponsible 
manufacturing and supplying?   

> No right is absolute either.  The public safety has overriding
> interest. 

then please tell me why my constitutional rights have been refused 
in Washington State, where if I even touch a firearm, I am guilty of 
a felony? I have commited no crime, broken no law (that I know of), 
never even been charged (oh, a speeding ticket which I paid) yet I 
am classified as a Criminal Fellon in the eyes of the State of 
Washington, please tell me how that serves the "public safety"?

Stan

eceived: from whale.fsr.net (slist@whale.fsr.net [207.141.26.9]) by fsr.com (8.8.8/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA25718 for <vision2020-archive@archive.fsr.com>; Mon, 20 Sep 1999 10:44:54 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (from slist@localhost)
	by whale.fsr.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA21550
	for vision2020-archive@archive.fsr.com; Mon, 20 Sep 1999 10:41:59 -0700 (PDT)
	(envelope-from vision2020-request@moscow.com)
Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 10:41:59 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <199909201741.KAA21131@whale.fsr.net>
From: sec@moscow.com
To: Vision2020@moscow.com
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 10:40:58 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Subject: Re: ban the bomb
Priority: normal
In-reply-to: <NBBBIJHAILIGJDJFCHFPAEOKFAAA.scooke@uidaho.edu>
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d)
Resent-Message-ID: <"1ULDqC.A.ALF.JHn53"@whale.fsr.net>
Resent-From: vision2020@moscow.com
X-Mailing-List: <vision2020@moscow.com> archive/latest/3683
X-Loop: vision2020@moscow.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vision2020-request@moscow.com

> Dear Visionaries,
>  For the record, I am in favor of banning all hand- and automatic-swimming
> pools. However, I would make sport and hunting swimming pools readily
> available if appropriate storage and safety locks are used. And yet, under

now I can't argue that to much, if you don't keep your swimming 
pool safe and secure so no one can get hold of one and swim in it, 
you should be liable.

> no circumstances do I think cannonballs should be allowed. I am against
> all automatic cars. I personally own a standard. I am against automatic
> refills of alcoholic beverages. (Are the people at "happy hour," really
> happy?) I am nothing if not consistent.
> 
> Stephen Cooke

what is your standpoint on automatic refills of non-alcholic 
beverages?

(thank god for some lightness!)

Stan