MER and Illogical Religions

["Ted Moffett" <ted_moffett@hotmail.com>]

Garrett, et. al.

For one thing, Garrett, your statements about a "Goddess" I assume are meant 
metaphorically?  Or do you really believe in a conscious entity with 
supernatural powers that is existing somewhere that you call the "Goddess?"  
When Doug Jones talks about "God" he means this literally, a real entity 
called God that created that universe that is the ultimate and 
unchallengeable source for his ethical system, that transcends and is 
outside what he would claim is the flawed human sourced ethical system of 
those who claim to believe in non-transcendently sourced non-religious 
ethical systems.

A person can have a belief system without it being a "religion" in the sense 
that Doug Jones and Greg Dickenson believe in religion.  I have ethical 
beliefs, but they are not arrived at in the same manner that Doug Jones 
claims to arrive at his ethical beliefs, nor do I have a "religion" in the 
sense Doug Jones believes in his religion, despite his logically flawed 
insistence on "religion" being a logically necessary presupposition for 
establishing a valid ethical system.

The arguments and issues involved in this are complex.  I have attempted to 
engage Doug Jones in dialog on issues related to these questions regarding 
his interpretations of "Equality," but he did not respond to a long and 
detailed analysis I sent him.   Dale Courtney also did not follow through in 
my discussion with him regarding his insistence that everyone is following a 
"religion" whether they know it or not.

Also, when Doug Jones dodges the connection between the passing of the 
nudity ordinance and Christ Church or other fundamentalist Christian 
churches in Moscow, he is flat out wrong, especially when he asserts that 
the belief that certain religious groups in Moscow promoted the nudity 
ordinance is some sort of "local fantasy in need of a coherent enemy" on the 
part of the people who oppose the nudity ordinance.  Much of the support to 
pass the nudity ordinance did come from fundamentalist Christians in Moscow!

Ted


>From: "Muscovites for Equal Rights" <idahomer@hotmail.com>
>To: gdickison@moscow.com, vision2020@moscow.com, credenda@moscow.com
>Subject: Re: Breasts, Brains and Headless Chickens
>Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 22:29:04 +0000
>
>Again, I have to agree with Gregory.  Religion, in my head, is basically a 
>belief system.  Therefore, religous arguments regarding this issue, 
>including mine, have been given from the beginning.
>I was specifically asking for a biblical citation because that seems to be 
>the book some folks base their belief system on.  Now I know that both 
>Gregory and Doug Jones are not in favor of the ordinance, so I will cease 
>to ask for biblical citations. (I am curious to know why Doug Jones is not 
>a proponant of this ordinance.)
>
>Judging from most of the posts to this list, we have some very devout 
>people in our community.  I have no problem with people having and 
>preaching their convictions.  I'll continue to do the same.
>
>I want to thank Doug Jones for republishing my comments regarding breasts.  
>Indeed, I believe in a Creator (God or Goddess, the name is not important, 
>though I chose to use a feminine description in reference to the creative 
>force behind breasts.)
>"Please remember: our first instinct is to suckle the breast, the giver of 
>milk.  Without this gift from Goddess, we would not survive."
>
>That is why I think it is ridiculous to criminalize breasts.  We should be 
>honoring them, not making women feal shameful for bearing them.  That is 
>what is really offensive.
>
>That seems pretty straitforward.  We cannot survive without the gifts from 
>God.  That includes everything on this planet, which is why my religion is 
>to respect life.  That is challenging in our world of turmoil and I'll be 
>the first to admit that I'm not perfect.
>
>When I see our city council pass a law that basically disrespects the women 
>in our community, I will advocate against it.
>
>Men need to get over their breast-envy and realize there is nothing evil 
>about being topfree.
>
>I have no problem including my religion in debating this issue.  Without 
>that religion, I would have no passion to fight what I see as repression.  
>However, my philosophical views symbolized by the quote Doug Jones cited is 
>not needed when there are so many arguments against this particular law.  
>That is the issue before us:  Why is this law necessary for Moscow?  In my 
>view, it is not and it will eventually be shot down.  Hopefully before we 
>waste money defending it.
>
>Besides, I will be playing the devil's advocate during our mock debate if 
>no one takes our debate challenge, so I will not be able to include my 
>philosophy during the debate.  Perhaps I will touch on it if I give a 
>speach.
>
>I still have heard no counters to any of our "non-religous" arguments 
>against the ordinance.  I can only assume that is because there are no 
>counters.
>
>That being the case, it is the culture of some who have imposed their views 
>by passing a law that now restricts the culture of others.  The only 
>problem is, that won't stand in a court of law.  A culture cannot just pass 
>laws that violate the broader culture's constitution and case-history.  Are 
>you willing to pay to defend this law?
>
>That is why the intent of our Civil Rights Celebration is to remember our 
>freedoms.  When we take them for granted and become complacent, that is 
>when they are legislated away.
>
>Peace from Garrett Clevenger
>
>
>
>
>
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