Re: Whose God is gonna whoop whose God's fanny!

["Ted Moffett" <ted_moffett@hotmail.com>]

Chuck:

Excellent post!

First off, a minor point:
Some mystic traditions do give measurable results on earth before you die 
from following certain mystic practices.  Yogi's following a "religious" 
tradition can attain amazing control over their bodies (heart rate, oxygen 
consumption, etc.), that has been documented by science.  And on this 
subject, now we have a challenge to the practice of Yoga in a public school 
in the USA due to the separation of church and state issue.  This is just in 
the news now!

Your view of Religion as a "social technology" is a very instructive way to 
view the hidden agendas of many religions, which is social control and 
power, not "virtue," as you point out.  And your point about the 
progressives with their "religion" losing this battle over social control 
and power is a great starting point to address how to proceed to challenge 
the power base of conservatives, with money at the top of the list of what 
brings social power.  Thus we have the fundamentalist Christian George Bush 
in the White House, who won (stole!) this office with the most expensive 
political campaign in the history of humanity!

Their is no doubt the fundamentalist Christians used their God to whoop 
Gore's God's fanny!  And the "God" of cash ruled!

You might be referring to me in your post as one of the "liberal courters" 
of Doug Wilson, due to some of my recent vision2020 posts that express an 
attempt to understand Wilson's views.  Part of my reason for trying to 
understand other viewpoints is that I do have a progressive's "faith" in the 
currency of ideas, as you put it, and the value of rational fact based 
discourse.

But your point about the realities of human minds, that we are selected for 
"disease resistance not intelligence," while not quite accurate, does hint 
at the ugly realities of what you aptly termed "social technology."  
Politicians run on lies.  People fall for it.  And politicians who try to 
run on the "currency of ideas," which I assume means honest rational fact 
based ideas, may lose when people fall for the lies or irrational emotional 
appeals of their opponents.  Religious leaders use the same tactics of 
"social technology" to gain power!

Progressives do need more unity and less arguing among themselves, as you 
suggest.  This point was screamed during the last presidential race 
regarding the Nader voters (I was one!), who it is clear now in hindsight, 
did cause Gore to lose, though really GORE WON (even with the Nader voters) 
according to the INTENT OF THE VOTERS, in both the US and Florida!  Maybe 
this means the progressives need to wake up and use more of that diabolical 
"social technology" ($$$$$) to push their agenda, and less of that "faith" 
in the currency of ideas, as you suggest.

The Republicans certainly used diabolical "social technology" ($$$$$), not 
the strength of their ideas, when they bought televised advertising to 
promote Nader, knowing Nader voters could secure the victory of Bush!

But this is just in part what caused the Nader voters to defect from the 
Democratic party:  the Democrats had compromised that very "currency of 
ideas" till the point they sounded like Republicans.

I will stop before I wade any further into the swamp of idealism vs. 
practical reality.

Your practical advice rings true, however much it insults my idealism: 
progressives should not "argue about everything with each other, accept the 
leadership of a couple of the smartest, and first and foremost put their 
money where their mouth is."  Good advice for upcoming Moscow and Latah 
county elections and all the issues and candidates, local, state and 
national, when Moscow voters will be punching those darned punch card 
ballots we are still using around here.

We can fund and build a 100 billion dollar missile defense shield, but not 
reliable and comprehendible voting machines and ballots?  World's Greatest 
Democracy Indeed!

Ted

>From: Kelley Racicot <kelley@racicot.org>
>To: <vision2020@moscow.com>
>Subject: Whose God is gonna whoop whose God's fanny!
>Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 21:06:46 -0700
>
>Hi Folks,
>
>It is an excellent question-- and a place where Moscow's ostensible liberal
>community might put some thought.
>
>Religion can be divine inspiration to those that want it-- whatever!  The
>various mystic aspects of all religions are all unprovable in any physical
>sense until you die.
>
>But one thing that is also most definitely true is that religion is a 
>social
>technology.  There's real advantages to putting your God up in a safe place
>(heaven), making him (or her) all-powerful, and mobile, making him
>invincible in terms of whatever definition of righteousness that one 
>happens
>to gin up to support their social agenda, and so on.  Gods on Earth, be 
>they
>trees or the planet, are inherently ephemeral-- and vulnerable.
>
>From what I see, the conservatives in this town have a decided upper-hand
>with their technology.  It causes them to be monolithic, and organized.
>Damn the objective reality-- full speed ahead with whatever comes up in the
>head of the local poo-bahs.  And they put their money where their mouth is,
>making sure that he has a full-time position, advancing their agenda.  Of
>course, it involves for some of them the notion of endorsing slavery 
>(hardly
>a mainstream position-- definitely out there on the fringe-- something to
>think about for all you Doug Wilson liberal courters on this list!) and
>execution of juveniles that curse their parents, as well as the usual
>silliness with female headscarves.  But they still buck up, at 10% or 
>better
>of that pre-tax salary!  And if folks don't think that money matters when 
>it
>comes to political organization, well, history has proven you wrong over 
>and
>over again.  In the hierarchy of 'state/tribe/band' states always beat
>tribes over the long haul-- and tribes always beat bands over the long 
>haul.
>From what I've seen of the progressive community in this town, they're
>definitely still at the 'band' stage of social evolution.  These
>conservative religious right people are definitely organized as a tribe.
>
>When you look at city government, state government, or even national
>government, there's no question to me that their God is beating the
>progressive's God.  It isn't because of any virtue, I can assure you.
>People are still going hungry in this country (hardly something the Jesus 
>of
>the Bible I learned about would countenance in such a rich society) and our
>current national leadership is talking about first-use of nuclear weapons.
>Gotta wonder what Jesus of 'turn the other cheek' fame would say about 
>that!
>But it doesn't matter-- and it's not gonna matter until progressives figure
>out that they can't argue about everything with each other, accept the
>leadership of a couple of the smartest, and first and foremost put their
>money where their mouth is.
>
>The progressive community is sold on the notion that the currency of ideas,
>and its relative value, is all that's needed to win-- get our God to beat
>their God.  Sorry, folks-- as a civilized society, we've been naturally
>selected for disease resistance-- not intelligence.
>
>Chuck Pezeshki
>
>From: "Gregory Dickison" <gdickison@moscow.com>
>Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 10:22:44 -0700
>To: <vision2020@moscow.com>
>Subject: Re: re.  personal thoughts
>Resent-From: vision2020@moscow.com
>Resent-Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 10:22:47 -0700 (PDT)
>
>And that always begs the ultimate question, can and should my God beat up
>your god?
>
>It is an excellent question. What is your ansswer?
>




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