The Straw Man Argument? Christian Ayatollah? A Few Jokes, But No Bickering!

["Ted Moffett" <ted_moffett@hotmail.com>]

Dale and relevant others:

This is my second post to vision2020 today.  I will submit to my public 
flogging!

I just looked up "Religion" in a dictionary and the first definition is:

1. A.  Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded 
as creator and governor of the universe.
   B.  A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and 
worship.

It is this meaning of the word religion I was referring to.  Your much more 
open and loosely defined definition of "Religion" would allow my ridiculous 
example of the fanatical basketball fan to claim he has found "Religion" 
with the game of basketball and all the culture and values that surround it. 
  Surely this is not what YOU mean by "Religion," is it?  If so, I 
misunderstood.  And I wonder what is your point if you define religion this 
way?  I was clearly distinguishing the difference between religion in the 
sense defined above, and those who do not take such a "Religious" view of 
the "Universe."  For you to say everyone has a religion in that very loose 
and vaguely defined meaning of religion is not to say very much of anything!

Yes, of course I have a "...cause, principle or system of beliefs held to 
with ardor and faith."  Actually the word "faith" trips me up.  I was going 
to say I support efforts to achieve world peace as a "...cause, principle or 
system of beliefs held to with ardor and..." but I really have no "faith" it 
will ever happen.  It is perfectly possible the human race will continue to 
slaughter each other till the sun expands into a red giant star and turns 
the earth into a cinder, which is the ultimate fate of earth, unless we move 
the earth away from the sun, or there is an error in the predictions for 
stellar evolution.  The extremists of politics and religion and other points 
of view (Marxism and even Capitalism would be a religion according to your 
loose definition) who think they must kill to enforce their power and 
ideological authority upon everyone will do their best to keep war alive!  
Nonetheless, I think the effort to end war a noble one.

There are more "Religions" in the world than I can count.  I'm sure there 
are people who make any cause into a religion according to your loose 
definition.  So what?  Actually though, I find this interesting because with 
an open ended definition of "Religion" maybe we can now establish the 
"Church of the Divine Constitution" (put aside for a moment that silly 
debate about separation of church and state) so that the US Federal 
Constitution will be safe from the rabid charges of relativism coming from 
the relativistic Christian Right!  Just joshing!

You gave no answer to my defense against your claim that I used a straw man 
argument regarding my questions about the establishment of a Christian 
state.  I gave the example you asked for of a Christian who is like the 
Ayatollah ruling a state in my example of the Catholic Pope and the Vatican. 
  The Pope is in some ways like a Christian version of an Ayatollah and he 
rules a state called the Vatican, with great wealth and powers extending all 
over the world.
So there are people who support and advocate a Christian version of an 
Ayatollah.  The Pope has been all over the news lately.  He gets as much 
coverage as the US President when he travels!

As to this talk of humanism being a religion, people who think this way need 
a divine revelation to guarantee the absolute eternal validity of their 
ethical system under all circumstances, say a huge face speaking in a 
booming voice (male of course with a beard) coming out of a billowing 
lighted cloud with angels and trumpets blasting proclaiming the truths of 
their ethical system from some transcendent realm.  Then they would no 
longer be dreaded "relativists."  But could there be a divinely (a 
contradiction, some might say) inspired "humanism?"  Let's hope not, for 
your sake.  You'd might be in a pickle then.  You might have to go to war to 
settle the ultimate absolute authority on this issue. Well, that is unless 
you truly followed Christ's teachings about turning the other cheek and 
loving your enemies, unlike those other relativistic Christians who kill and 
make war in the name of God. I would be on the sideline trying to referee 
and make peace because I don't believe in Religion, which would probably 
mean both sides would want to crucify me for my impartial reasonableness!  
I'm just joking, but with a point, if you catch my drift?

Peace.

Ted

>From: "Dale Courtney" <dmcourtn@moscow.com>
>To: <vision2020@moscow.com>
>Subject: Re: Definition of Religion? Christianity's Power! Straw Man? NO! 
>The Vatican!
>Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 08:05:36 -0700
>
>Ted Moffett wrote:
> > First off, I think you are exaggerating your claim that everyone has a
> > Religion.  To make this claim you must define Religion in a way that 
>really
> > strips the word of any strength or definiteness of meaning.
>
>One of the Webster definitions of religion is "Religion is a cause, 
>principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith." -- no 
>mention "god", "the bible", etc.
>
>It is in this sense that the word "religion" is used -- the basic sense of 
>meaning. It is a narrowing of the meaning to apply it only to "faith-based 
>groups" -- as if all of our presuppositions were not faith-based.
>
>Would you be willing to deny that you have a system of belief that you hold 
>with ardor and faith?
>
>Some thoughts:
>   a.. John Dewey described Humanism as our "common faith."
>   b.. Julian Huxley called Humanism "Religion without Revelation"
>   c.. The first Humanist Manifesto spoke openly and repeatedly of Humanism 
>as a religion. http://www.jjnet.com/archives/documents/humanist.htm
>   d.. Many other Humanists could be cited who have acknowledged that 
>Humanism is a religion. In fact, claiming that Humanism was "the new 
>religion" was trendy for at least 100 years
>   e.. In the 1950's, Humanists sought and obtained tax-exempt status as 
>religious organizations.
>   f.. Even the Supreme Court of the United States spoke in 1961 of Secular 
>Humanism as a religion.
>My point: everyone has a "cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to 
>with ardor and faith" -- even pagans.
>
>Dale Courtney
>Moscow, ID






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