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Re: Idaho sales tax exemptions



Title: Re: Idaho sales tax exemptions
Chuck,
 
I'll let Jack speak for himself on your issues/concerns. He's in the middle of writing a book on the subject, so what follows is excepts from his research addressing your remarks.
 
Pax,
Dale

Dear Dale:
        I have the following quick comments on the remarks of Chuck Pezeshki. Most of his comments actually support my views, only I don't think he realizes it. I apologize in advance for some of the long pastes below. but since I am writing a book reviewing the literature on public education, I have lots of ammo already prepared and I can see no sense in repeating my self.
        1. Chuck's major point seems to be that teachers salaries are too low. Well, the only market test of teachers salaries is whether or not schools are able to hire faculty in sufficient numbers and quality. Except for math and science, the teachers market is in excess supply, indicating that salaries are undoubtedly generally too high.  For openers, I am pasting here the evidence I have gathered on this subject.

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        Summary of Evidence on Above-Market Wages of Public School Teachers

     Surplus of Teachers. A larger reason for the NEA's drive to keep teacher salary determination out of the market place is the perennial general over-production and availability of teachers relative to those needed in the public schools. For example, in 1996 there were about 2.2 million teachers employed in the US. Yet, census data shows that there were about 6 million people in the US with bachelor degrees in education. (Feistritzer. 1998) For all the talk and spin about teacher "shortages", the fact of the matter is that teachers markets generally are in excess supply. Only about half of newly certified education college graduates each year end up actually being employed as teachers, with the rest going elsewhere in the private sector, where they remain as a heavy supply overhang on the teachers' market. (Ballou and Podgursky. 1997, pp. 56-57) In Idaho, the State Board of Education (2001) recently issued a report that showed a large and growing surplus of teachers in Idaho. Predictably, as I indicated above, the numbers were fraudulently represented as showing a shortage. (Wenders. 2002) 

       Teacher Attrition.  The above-market level of teachers' pay is also confirmed by teachers' low turnover and attrition rates. In any state, 92 to 96% of the teachers are retained each year. (Barro. 1992, p. 148) In Idaho, the retention rate is at least 92.4%, and the net resignation rate is at most 5.4% annually. (Wenders. 2002, p. 3) Due to teachers moving from one state to another national attrition rates are even lower. The U-shaped relationship between the attrition rate and age means that generally teachers only leave their jobs early or late in their careers. Once past the first few years, they generally stay and ride the salary grids upward until retirement. (Barro. 1992, pp. 148-57) All this means that teachers rarely leave for better paying jobs in the outside market economy because they are very well paid for teaching. And, as I shall point out below in more detail, since benefits for teachers are generally much higher than in the private sector, this often means teachers find it attractive to retire early, often to become double dippers by becoming teachers in other jurisdictions. Compared to the private sector, teachers are very well paid and, except for the most talented, leave teaching at a very low rate.   

        Comparable Compensation.  Private sector benefits are usually substantially less than for public employees. Table 691 of the Statistical Abstract of the United states, (http://www.census.gov/prod/www/ statistical-abstract-us. html), reports the ratio of total compensation to salary as 1.158 for the private sector, and 1.3133 for the government sector, for 1998. The Pennsylvania study found that teachers' benefits as a percentage of total salary to be 36.1%, and in the private sector they were 23%. (Wynne and Watters 1991, Table 2) (As I note below, this article also has an excellent discussion of the issues and problems of comparing teachers salaries and compensation with that of comparable employees in the private sector.) Public school teachers' benefits are much higher than in private schools. (McLaughlin and Broughman. 1997, Table 3.13)
        By how much is public school teachers' compensation above market? Since market determined pay for public school teachers has not been tried for a long time, we cannot observe what has not happened. In their study  comparing compensation between teachers and other comparable employees in Pennsylvania, Wynne and Watters (1991) found comparable employees to earn between 68% and 74% of public school teachers' compensation. Private schools pay average salaries of about 66% of those in the public schools, and private starting salaries are about 74% of those in public schools. (Ballou and Podgursky. 1997, Table 6.1, p. 131) Taking into account experience and education, private schools pay salaries about 60 percent of those in local public schools. (U. S. Department of Education. 1998) An NCES working paper found raw private school teacher salaries to be 64% of public school teachers'. (McLaughlin and Broughman. 1997, Table 3.12) As noted below, since benefits are higher in the public sector generally, and higher for public than in private schools, these differentials under-state the difference in total compensation between public and private schools.
       Of course, there are differences in teachers and teaching between public and private schools so their teachers' pay is not strictly comparable. Since a large fraction of the private schools have a religious affiliation, and practice selective admissions, private school teachers may be willing to work for less because of the attraction of this religious affiliation and different students. The same holds because of the greater independence given to private school teachers. On the other hand, private schools tend to hire teachers from more selective colleges and fewer from colleges rated below average. Private schools have proportionately more secondary teachers who have an academic major but about the same who major in math and science. Because of this, combined with greater pay flexibility, private schools hire and keep teachers of higher quality. And private schools may have to pay more because few grant tenure, whereas tenure is virtually universal in public schools after two to three years. These elements of non-comparability go both ways as they affect public and private teacher pay comparisons. (Ballou and Soler. 1998; Ballou and Podgursky. 1997)
        The big difference between private and public schools is that the former must compete for students in a marketplace where public education is free. In private schools, there is intense pressure to keep costs down and teachers' unions are rare. In this environment, private schools take advantage of the general teacher surplus by paying only what is necessary to recruit the kind of teachers needed to satisfy their customers--parents. They face the same potential pool of teachers and manage to hire superior teachers at far less cost.
        Because of the general surplus of teachers and their low rates of attrition, there is no question that public school teachers' pay is well above market. By how much is subject to some uncertainty, but on average it is probably 25-40 percent, all other things equal, with the best estimate probably closer to the latter percent. This result is consistent with the economics literature on the salary premiums (rents) earned by educators. (Coase. 1974; Lott. 1987; West. 1967) It also is consistent with the comparative per pupil costs in public an private education.

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      References

Ballou, Dale, and Michael Podgursky. 1997.  Teacher Pay and Teacher Quality. Kalamazoo, MI: W.E. Upjohn Institute for Employment Research.

Ballou, Dale, and Stephanie Soler. 1998. "Addressing the Looming Teacher Crunch" Washington, DC. Progressive Policy Institute. (http://www.ppionline. org/ppi_ci.cfm?contentid=1652&knlgAreaID=110&subsecid=135)

Barro, Stephen M. 1992. "Models for Projecting Teacher Supply, Demand, and Quality: An Assessment of the State of the Art." In Teacher Supply, Demand, and Quality, Erling E. Boe and Dorothy M. Gifford, eds. Washington, DC: National Academy Press.

Coase, Ronald. 1974. "The Market for Goods and the Market for Ideas" American Economic Review. 64 (May): 384-91.

Feistritzer, C. Emily. 1998. "The Truth About the 'Teacher Shortage'".  The Wall Street Journal, January 28.

Idaho State Board of Education. 2001. Idaho's MOST Forecast Report: Idaho Teacher Supply and Demand 2000-2010. Boise, ID: Idaho State Board of Education. October 19, 2001. http://www.sde.state.id.us/MOST/ ForecastStudyUpdate.htm

Lott, John R., Jr. 1987. "Why is Education Publically Provided?" The Cato Journal. 7 (Fall): 475-502.

McLaughlin, Donald H., and Stephen Broughman. 1997. Private Schools in the United States: A Statistical Profile. National Center for Education Statistics (NCES). Working Paper NCES 97-459.

United States Department of Education, National Center for Education Statistics. 1998. Private School Universe Survey, 1997-98. Washington, D.C.: National Center for Education Statistics.

Wenders, John T. 2002a. "Analysis of Idaho's MOST Forecast Report: Idaho Teacher Supply and Demand 2000-2010" The Idaho Alliance for Traditional Values. February 8, 2002. (http://www.uidaho.edu/~jwenders/Essays %20In%20Persuasion/New/Teacher_Supply_and_Demand.pdf)

Wynne, David J., and Charles W. Watters. 1991. "Teacher Compensation: How it Compares with the Private Sector" Government Union Review 12, No. 3 (Summer): 31-43.

-----------------------------------

JTWenders
8/1/02

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        2. There is no question that pay for math and science teachers is too low, but it is a non sequitur to argue that this is a reason for raising all salaries. To put it in context, having to pay higher wages to attract engineering professors is no reason to also pay phys ed. professors more. The sub-markets for teachers in different subjects  are quite different, as they are at the college level. In my view, any engineering graduate is subject matter qualified to teach math, and probably most science, in high school. Yet, the artificial certification and licensing requirements, and salaries that fail to recognize that math and science teachers have higher paying opportunities outside of teaching, keep engineering grads, like Chuck's wife, out of the  profession. My major point is that the salary grid, by failing to reward superior performance and subject field, keeps better teachers out of the  profession and creates the shortages of math and science teachers that we observe. Much of what Chuck says supports my point. Think of it in the following way: what would happen in Universities if all professors were forced on a salary grid that failed to reward performance and differentiate between, say, engineering and education professors? That is exactly what has happened in the public schools.

        3. There is evidence that by failing failing to reward performance, the salary grid causes the better teachers to leave.

        4. There is no evidence that education courses produce better teachers.  Lots of time and zillions of dollars of resources are wasted on the artificial licensing and certification requirements. Note all the silly hoops Chuck's wife is having to go thru to get into teaching. She's the kind of person that the salary grid and the artificial licensing and certification requirements keep out of the field. Given the general low quality of students in the Colleges of Education, I am not surprised that she is the best in her class. But this is the very kind of person that the salary grid keeps out of the profession.

        5. I am not obsessed with the fact that teachers have summers off. This is simply one attractive features of teaching, and one which makes the rewards of the profession incomparable with the monetary rewards of other professions. I, for one, for 40 years willingly accepted lower pay in return for other features of the teaching profession, summers off being one of these features that was important to me. For others, the higher pay associated with a 12 mo. job is more important. Life is choice.

        6. It is worth emphasizing that teachers' compensation is greatly underestimated by reporting only teachers' pay. Benefits in the  public sector, and for teachers specifically, are usually about twice what they are in the private sector. In Idaho, teacher benefits are a little under 30% of salary, so when the NEA reports the average teacher salary to be about $36k, compensation is really about $48k, which is why the NEA never mentions the value of benefits.

        I can back up any of the above statements with facts, and would be quite willing to do so if anyone is interested. You can communicate my remarks to anyone you choose.

        For what its worth, I am pasting below a summary of the evidence on the waste in public education in the US.

        Regards,

        Jack

---------------------------------------------------

        How much waste is in the US public school system?

       The obvious way to estimate public school rents is to compare its costs of operation with those in the private school sector, which, because they are faced with clear parental school choice, have much greater incentives to operate efficiently. This effort is hampered somewhat by the fact that there is no systematic collection of private school costs. Further, private schools seem to be more eclectic, ranging from religious schools to elite boarding schools. The fact that most of the private schools have some kind of religious affiliation raises the issue of how to deal with some employees there who are paid less than market wages. Never the less, the statistics that exist, taken together with various reasonable ways of adjusting the data for private school peculiarities, can give us an estimate of the efficiency advantages of private education.
        1. Salaries and benefits are the largest operating costs of any school in lower education. Using data from the 1987-88 NCES Schools and Staffing survey, Ballou and Podgursky (1997. Table 6.1) found the average public and private school teacher salaries to be $26,458 and $17,434 respectively. This shows that private salaries are on the average 65.9% of those in public schools. In these data, an attempt was made to adjust for teachers who were members of religious orders by excluding all Catholic teachers who were never married.  In 1993-94 private school salaries were 64% of public school teachers'. (McLaughlin and Broughman. 1997, Table 3.12) Both these data sets ignore benefits, which, as I shall discuss in some detail in Chapter 5 below, are much higher in the public school sector. The data show the benefits are about 31.3% of salary in the public sector as a whole and 15.8% in the private sector. Benefits averaged 29.2% of salary for public school teachers from 1994-99. There is also evidence that private school teachers are of higher quality. On the whole, private school teachers' salaries are probably in the range of 60% to 75% of those in public schools, all other things being equal, with the best estimate probably closer to the lower figure. Clearly, a large portion of the rents in public school education have been captured by the public school teachers.
2. Lott (1987, p. 476), using data from NCES, estimated private expenditures per pupil in private Catholic schools to be 54.7% of those in public schools in 1976-77, and 51.6% in 1977-78. Again an adjustment was made for lower paid religious teachers by doubling their pay for computational purposes.
    3. I have been able to uncover only one other study that tried to estimate per pupil expenditures for US private schools. (Garet, et al. 1995) Using various estimating techniques, this study found private per pupil costs for all private schools in 1991-92 to range between $3,375 and $3,550, or about 67.2% and 70.7% of public school current costs for this year, which were $5023 per pupil (NCES. 2001). (It is also worth noting that the reported public school costs exclude the costs of state bureaucrats, which are not insignificant.) When the elite, college preparatory, schools are excluded, private school costs fall to about $2883 per pupil, or 57.4% of the comparable public school cost. 
For Catholic schools alone, the costs are $2378 per pupil, or 47.3% of public school costs. The latter estimate is consistent with the results found by Lott for Catholic schools considering that Lott made a salary adjustment for the low pay for religious teachers.
        For other religious schools (other than Catholic and Lutheran) the per pupil cost estimate was $3048, and for non-sectarian schools the estimate was $2967. These latter estimates might be more relevant than those of the Catholic and Lutheran schools for they probably do not include religious (non-lay) teachers who accept lower pay. These schools per pupil costs are 60.7% and 59.1% of comparable public school expenditures, respectively.
        All things considered, it would seem reasonable to assume that private schools operate at about 55 to 60% of the costs of public schools. Or conversely, about 40 to 45% of public school expenditures are dissipated or wasted. These are not insignificant monies. For 2000-01, NCES estimated total current expenditures for public schools to be about $333 billion (NCES. 2001, Table 161). Assuming an additional 17% for capital outlays and interest, this brings total estimated US public school expenditures to about $392 billion. Applying the waste estimates of 40-45%, this shows that US public education wastes about $157 to $176 billion annually. That is about 1.59 to 1.79% of gross domestic product. Aside from producing an inferior education, the waste in public schools represent a very significant drain on the US economy.

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References

Ballou, Dale, and Michael Podgursky. 1997.  Teacher Pay and Teacher Quality. Kalamazoo, MI: W.E. Upjohn Institute for Employment Research.

Garet, Michael, Tsze H. Chan, and Joel D. Sherman. 1995. Estimates of Expenditures for Private K-12 Schools, National Center for Education Statistics, NCES Working Paper: #95-17. May

Lott, John R., Jr. 1987. "Why is Education Publically Provided?" The Cato Journal. 7 (Fall): 475-502.

McLaughlin, Donald H., and Stephen Broughman. 1997. Private Schools in the United States: A Statistical Profile. National Center for Education Statistics (NCES). Working Paper NCES 97-459.

National Center for Education Statistics (NCES). 2001. Digest of Education Statistics, 1996a, 2001. US Department of Education, Office of Educational Research and Improvement. NCES 96-133. NCES 2002-130. (http://nces.ed.gov/)

United States Department of Education, National Center for Education Statistics. 1998. Private School Universe Survey, 1997-98. Washington, D.C.: National Center for Education Statistics.

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JTWenders
8/1/02
----- Original Message -----
From: Kelley Racicot
To: Dale Courtney ; vision2020@moscow.com
Cc: Troy Merrill
Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 9:00 AM
Subject: Re: Idaho sales tax exemptions

HI Dale,

I don't have the time to go to the library to read the other cites, but there's plenty of information in Wenders' cites to talk about.

Wenders' papers (I read three of them) primarily attack the NEA/IEA salary grid that pays starting teachers much less than established teachers.  The fact still remains that starting teachers make about 1/2 of what one of my engineering grads make.  Where's the incentive to bring bright young minds into the field?

I think it's also profoundly irrelevant, if one is a free-market thinker, to compare what a teacher makes to what someone else locally, in a small community (say a salesperson at a local store) makes.  It might make sense from a social perspective, but that's not free-market economics.  One has to look at what competing classes of professionals make, and even established teachers fare poorly compared to starting professionals in other fields.

One of the primary, implied points of Wenders' work actually backs up my own practical experience-- that starting pay is too low to attract the most talented individuals to the profession.  My anecdotal evidence is my own wife-- Kelley.  Kelley was named the top senior in her education class at the U of I.  She also has an engineering degree, so she would be a prime professional to attract to the field, and yes, she was a successful engineer before she stopped work to have our two boys.  She loves kids, and is excellent in working with them.  However, with one semester left in her education, and potentially one year of student teaching in front of her, she is having serious reservations about completing her degree.  It will cost us about $3K in day care just for her to complete her final semester, as well as tuition-- not calculating in the emotional issues of being separated from our 2 and 4 year old.  After that, there is the potential for either a 1/2 year or 1 year free labor/student teaching (with incumbent daycare costs, and the opportunity cost of not doing something else).  All this for a job that will pay less than $22K.  We're leaning toward just buying more life insurance in case I get hit by a truck-- in the end it will be cheaper and provide us with more financial security!

One thing that I find fascinating in Wenders work is the obsession with the fact that teachers have the summers off.  There are built-in assumptions there that teachers ought to be able to fill the remaining three months with work, and that the labor market is infinitely elastic, and there is no structural unemployment caused by the profession.  While there's no question that the time off is a benefit, what I see is that being a teacher puts you in competition with other part-time work because of the low pay for people that are professionals.  Looking at my wife's case, she's considering taking courses in database mgmt., where she could work 10-20 hrs./week and make more than a teacher.  While this is anecdotal, I think it is illustrative.  The real professionals that might make a substantial difference in the classroom are limited to those seeking part-time work.  Those viewing solely as a full-time occupation are competing against others in that full-time wage class, which is beneath full-time log truck driver in these parts.  IIRC, log truck drivers make around $50K/yr.

This interpretation also bolsters another of Wenders' observations-- that the rate of teachers leaving the profession is very low-- basically no mobility outward once teachers have started.  The part-time/full-time thesis fits this to a tee.  Part-time competitors aren't leaving because they always viewed the job as secondary income, and value free time highly.  Full-time folks aren't leaving because teaching is the best job they can get.

What this leads to is the only way you can really change teacher quality is to offer competitive entry-level professional salaries, over a long-enough time to change the characteristics of the entry pool.  And that's not likely to happen.  Instead, what we're seeing from legislators is increased inspection of the entry pool (extension of student teaching to 1 year , more courses, more CE credits).  And any manufacturing engineer will tell you that's the recipe for disaster.  You can't inspect quality into the product.

What I'd really be interested in seeing is how students from affluent neighborhoods, where teachers are better paid (actually paid a competitive professional wage), actually do much worse than students from poverty-stricken neighborhoods.  Now that would be interesting.  Until then, your point is not proven.


Chuck Pezeshki

From: "Dale Courtney" <dmcourtn@moscow.com>
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 07:40:46 -0700
To: <vision2020@moscow.com>
Cc: "Kelley Racicot" <kelley@racicot.org>, "Troy Merrill" <troy1@moscow.com>
Subject: Re: Idaho sales tax exemptions
Resent-From: vision2020@moscow.com
Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 07:46:16 -0700 (PDT)

See Jack Wenders' excellent articles:
- Why public school teachers are over-paid (http://www.uidaho.edu/~jwenders/Essays%20In%20Persuasion/New2/Teacher_Comp_Whole.pdf <http://www.uidaho.edu/~jwenders/Essays In Persuasion/New2/Teacher_Comp_Whole.pdf> )
- The Teacher's Salary Grid (http://www.uidaho.edu/~jwenders/Essays%20In%20Persuasion/New2/The_GridUnion_Review.pdf <http://www.uidaho.edu/~jwenders/Essays In Persuasion/New2/The_GridUnion_Review.pdf> )
- Teacher's Pay (http://www.uidaho.edu/~jwenders/Essays%20In%20Persuasion/4/B-TEACHERS__PAY-84(MSW).pdf <http://www.uidaho.edu/~jwenders/Essays In Persuasion/4/B-TEACHERS__PAY-84(MSW).pdf> )
- Teacher Supply and Demand (http://www.uidaho.edu/~jwenders/Essays%20In%20Persuasion/New/Teacher_Supply_and_Demand.pdf) <http://www.uidaho.edu/~jwenders/Essays In Persuasion/New/Teacher_Supply_and_Demand.pdf)>




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