RE: this applies to Iran and Iraq as well!

["Shahab Mesbah" <meteor2@moscow.com>]

There is a lot to consider... it is hard to see all the facts. I apologize
for my unclear writing. I understand that I do not say things exactly the
way a native speaker would. I know Tom and find him an intelligent and kind
person. We are all overwhelmed with the recent events.

I have to say that I have never been as proud of being an American as I am
now. The tragedy hurt me but what really touched me was the way my brothers
and sisters have rushed to help. This proves my point... Americans are
genuinely kind and selfless people. Unfortunately our government does not
always act like its citizens.

"Your brother in arms"
Shahab...

-----Original Message-----
From: TEX [mailto:tex@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu]
Sent: Friday, September 21, 2001 8:10 AM
To: Tom Hansen
Cc: Moscow Vision 2020
Subject: RE: this applies to Iran and Iraq as well!



He already answered that question, Tom.  Why don't you go back and read
for content instead of contention.

Also, I hope that noone reading this thread is actually ignorant enough to
believe that what we are about to do to Afghanistan will in any way
"guarantee the safety of all US citizens, US military installations, and
US embassies throughout the world"...

Just because revenge and retaliation is the only answer the government can
come up with does NOT mean it is the correct answer.

           Clint "Tex" Payton
       email: tex@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu

On Fri, 21 Sep 2001, Tom Hansen wrote:

> Greetings -
>
> Just one question, Shahab:  What is your suggested alternative course of
> action for the US that would guarantee the safety of all US citizens, US
> military installations, and US embassies throughout the world?
>
> I read alot of criticism, but no suggestions.
>
> Tom Hansen
>
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Shahab Mesbah [mailto:meteor2@moscow.com]
> >Sent: Friday, September 21, 2001 1:55 AM
> >To: Douglas Whitney; TEX
> >Cc: vision2020@moscow.com
> >Subject: RE: this applies to Iran and Iraq as well!
> >
> >
> >Absolutely... I agree that we need to get rid of the scum on earth. As I
> >have stated many times the only people I have ever been prejudice against
> >are the fanatical people. I am by no means suggesting that we should let
> >them get a way with this. I just do not think our president has the
> >perspective and worldliness to understand what he is getting everyone
into.
> >The Afghany people are Persians in the west with increasing Indian mix in
> >the east. They speak a dialect of Persian language. I can understand what
> >they say. These are my countrymen. I understand the culture... it
> >is my own.
> >Just like the Iranian people the Afghany people have no animosity towards
> >the US. You see the militant fundamentalists and fanatics in these
> >countries. You don't know what it means to live under a tyrant. In this
> >country we have safeguards to keep most of that from happening. But in
the
> >Middle East most of the governments are corrupt. Most of the money
> >and power
> >is held by the elite who take advantage of the people. US kept the shah
of
> >Iran in power in fear of communism. When he increased the price of oil US
> >got rid of him in favor of their new puppet Khomayni. The whole
instability
> >in the Middle East was a miscalculation. We have been manipulating
> >countries
> >for out own benefit. We have put in place tyrannical regimes that can
> >control their people with force. This has given fertile ground for
> >fanatical
> >proliferation all over the region. The whole thing is about cheap oil...
> >that is it. Well... we forgot to take other peoples needs in
consideration.
> >We forgot the basic principle of "do onto others as you wish them
> >to do onto
> >you". We lost track of the millions that suffered so we could drive our
> >SUVs. This is not America... this is not responsible behavior... I
> >know this
> >is not the way Americans are... I have lived here for over 20
> >years and have
> >found Americans to be generous and deeply caring bunch! So why is
> >it that we
> >have ignored the worlds problems for so long? The answer my friends is
> >ignorance. Please do not mistake ignorance with stupidity! Ignorance is
> >curable... all it takes is education; stupidity is incurable! We as
> >Americans must educate ourselves in the ways of the world we live in. the
> >time when we could ignore the rest of the world is over. It is time we
show
> >the world who we really are. The fact is that if the public knew the
> >atrocities that the Taliban or the government of Iran or Iraq have been
> >committing there would be an outcry to mobilize aid to the people of
these
> >nations by riding them of their oppressive government, help build their
> >democracies and allow them to enjoy the human rights we so often take for
> >granted. We do not need to beat the hell out of the people... we need to
> >empower them to rebuild their societies. We helped Japan and
> >Germany rebuild
> >in this way and look at what they have become. This would be far
> >cheaper and
> >would actually have the desired effect. Why do we have this problem with
> >going in and getting rid of tyrannical leaders? Why is it ok to
> >kill a whole
> >bunch of Iraqi people but we cannot knock Saddam Husain out? What kind of
> >backwards, brainless logic is this? Do you really think that the Iraqi
> >soldiers are soldiers by choice? Do you really think that the people in
> >Afghanistan like to be beaten? Do you think it has anything to do with
> >Islam? Please... do not be so naïve... it is all about money, drugs, and
> >oil. That is it... the tyrants are getting rich beyond your wildest
> >imaginations. The supreme religious ruler of Iran has over $200 million
> >dollars in his foreign bank accounts... at a time when the Iranian people
> >are increasingly not able to provide for their families. In Afghanistan
the
> >Taliban is nothing but a drug cartel. They are getting rich also while
the
> >people of that country are among the worst 3 countries in the world when
it
> >comes to quality of life. I have hinted that the Afghany war would be
like
> >the war on drugs... that was the connection I was making. Like the war on
> >drugs we will fail because we are not eliminating the problem... we just
> >want to put up a good show so the American people feel good that their
> >government is trying to do something! We have lost much credibility
because
> >we keep doing this. The only way to eliminate terrorism is to eliminate
its
> >cause, which is injustice. Give me justice and I will show you heaven on
> >earth! Treat all tyrants the same way... have mercy and compassion for
the
> >innocent people and you will, in a very short time, have the world
proclaim
> >you their helper, their savior. Do this and find out what a friend
> >is. If we
> >go in we need to go in with only one goal... justice for all.
> >
> >"Your brother in arms"
> >Shahab...
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Douglas Whitney [mailto:dwhitney@moscow.com]
> >Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2001 11:13 PM
> >To: TEX; Shahab Mesbah
> >Cc: vision2020@moscow.com
> >Subject: Re: this applies to Iran and Iraq as well!
> >
> >When a smoker gets lung cancer, he has to have some one dig in, find the
> >cancer, and kill it. It does not matter that he may have had a part in
> >creating the malignancy, as we did with some of our misguided
> >foreign policy
> >over the last 60 years. This malignancy must now be rooted out and
> >killed. I
> >pray that we can do it with little or no damage to our peaceful brethren
of
> >Islam. However, we will certainly have to sacrifice some of our own to
get
> >the job done.
> >
> >Doug
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "TEX" <tex@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu>
> >To: "Shahab Mesbah" <meteor2@moscow.com>
> >Cc: <vision2020@moscow.com>
> >Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2001 10:46 PM
> >Subject: RE: this applies to Iran and Iraq as well!
> >
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> I have to agree with Shahab here.  I think it was a fairly sophmoric
move
> >> on Mr. Walter Steed's part to put words in someones mouth and basically
> >> accuse them of being unpatriotic.  If that is really what you got out
of
> >> this thread Walter (if I may), then I suggest you read it again.
> > The U.S.
> >> is far from innocent when it comes to the reasons many middle-eastern
> >> countries loathe us.  The mass media, as usual, is doing a grandiose
job
> >> of avoiding all the logical reasons anyone would have for wanting to
> >> attack us.  I was really disappointed that all Dan Rather could come up
> >> with on the Letterman interview was to categorically call all of the
> >> perpetrators of this act "madmen, and who can explain evil?"  There is
so
> >> much more to it, and he well knows it.  The US practically made
> >famous the
> >> idea of jihad when it propped up the very person we are now equating
with
> >> the devil (Bin Laden vs Russia).  Now the govt and the media will
attempt
> >> to redefine the term jihad into something evil in order to rally
support
> >> against it.
> >>
> >>   Alas, we are now already set upon a path, whatever it may be, that
the
> >> government has laid out.  I doubt any voices of dissension will be
heard
> >> amongst the gunfire and bombings... and I'm sure the "radical muslim
> >> fringe" could use another martyr anyway.
> >>
> >>            Clint "Tex" Payton
> >>        email: tex@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu
> >>
> >> On Thu, 20 Sep 2001, Shahab Mesbah wrote:
> >>
> >> > No my friend... I am the one concerned with terrorism here. We can
> >> > rationalize our acts just like the fanatics who attacked us last
week.
> >The
> >> > fact remains that we are not without blame ourselves. As for the
> >presidents
> >> > statement... I agree that if you are not against terrorism then you
are
> >not
> >> > one of us. I just wonder if he realizes that he is becoming a
> >terrorist.
> >> >
> >> > Last week I did not sleep for three days. I cried for days and was
> >virtually
> >> > dysfunctional all week. I lost family members last week. This
> >attack was
> >> > very personal. Yet I will not jeopardize the well being of this
nation
> >> > because of it. In fact I am the patriotic one here. I place myself in
> >harms
> >> > way and speak against many threats so I can help this
> >nation... I resent
> >my
> >> > patriotism questioned. I have sacrifices much for this country. And I
> >will
> >> > defend the free speech and human rights to death. I will not follow a
> >> > president blindly; I will not follow anyone blindly. The difference
> >between
> >> > me and those idiots who are brainwashed by their leader to fly an
> >airplane
> >> > into buildings and kill thousands is precisely that. Fanaticism is
> >evil...
> >> > it can wrapped in a religious facade... it can me nationalistic in
> >nature...
> >> > either way it is evil and thus will cause nothing but pain and
anguish.
> >> >
> >> > And I am as always "Your brother in arms"
> >> >
> >> > Shahab...
> >> >
> >> > -----Original Message-----
> >> > From: WMSteed@aol.com [mailto:WMSteed@aol.com]
> >> > Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2001 8:27 PM
> >> > To: meteor2@moscow.com; thansen@moscow.com; vision2020@moscow.com;
> >> > goodallj@earthlink.net
> >> > Subject: Re: this applies to Iran and Iraq as well!
> >> >
> >> > In a message dated 9/20/01 7:04:29 PM, meteor2@moscow.com writes:
> >> >
> >> > << there is only one way to eliminate terrorism. Once
> >> > you eliminate the cause... you will eliminate the symptoms. >>
> >> >
> >> > The following was filed by Reuters today re former Israel
> >Prime Minister
> >> > Netanyahu's remarks before a congressional committee.
> >> >
> >> > "He said the ultimate goal of Islamic militants, emboldened by their
> >victory
> >> > in Afghanistan over the former Soviet Union, was the destruction of
the
> >> > United States. Any signs of weakness in retaliating for the hijack
> >attacks
> >> > that left more than 6,500 people dead or missing will be seen as
> >> > encouragement for more strikes, he said.
> >> >
> >> > "Unless they are stopped now, their attacks will continue, and become
> >even
> >> > more lethal in the future," Netanyahu said.
> >> >
> >> > Some states that support such groups already have access to
biological
> >and
> >> > chemical weapon capabilities, he said, and could one day soon gain
> >access to
> >> > rudimentary nuclear bombs.
> >> >
> >> > But once such groups learn that the United States will not withdraw
in
> >fear
> >> > but instead will strike back hard, he said, "then you will see this
> >danger
> >> > recede.""
> >> >
> >> > He also said something to the effect that people who try to analyze
> >these
> >> > people and their motives just don't understand the gravity of their
> >acts.
> >> >
> >> > If they are upset that we went into Saudi Arabia to free one of our
> >partner
> >> > countries from Iraq occupation, that cannot be reversed; it happened.
> >If
> >> > they are upset that we live in houses and not caves and despise our
> >> > prosperity, then I know of no American who would give up his
> >standard of
> >> > living expecting them to stop their barbaric attacks and adopt us as
> >their
> >> > friends. Personally, I have no interest in winning the friendship of
> >people
> >> > who have done what they have done.
> >> >
> >> > <<If you think that we can make a
> >> > bubble of security around us and ignore everyone else you are sadly
> >> > mistaken. What happens on the other side of the world will affect you
> >> > here.>>
> >> >
> >> > We do not attempt to ignore every one else.  These terrorists are
> >against
> >> > everyone who is not like themselves and anything we can do to stop
them
> >> > before they nuke or attack with chemical or biological weapons Paris,
> >Rome,
> >> > Sidney, Moscow, London, etc., will be to the benefit of civilization.
> >> >
> >> > I'm not sure what "Your brother in arms" is intended to convey, but
the
> >> > President reiterated tonight before Congress, "If you are not with us
> >> > against
> >> > terrorism, you are against us."  To not support the U.S. and its
chosen
> >> > course of action in this fight is to turn a blind eye to the
potential
> >of
> >> > even greater devastation in the future.
> >> >
> >> > Walter Steed
> >> >
> >>
> >
>