Definition of Religion? Christianity's Power! Straw Man? NO! The Vatican!

["Ted Moffett" <ted_moffett@hotmail.com>]

Doug or Dale et. al.

These discussions can go round and round forever, but let me address several 
points.

First off, I think you are exaggerating your claim that everyone has a 
Religion.  To make this claim you must define Religion in a way that really 
strips the word of any strength or definiteness of meaning.
I do not think everyone has a Religion in the full sense of this word, where 
you follow an organized belief system with other people in an ideological 
structure that commands you follow certain exact beliefs or you are a 
non-believer in said Religion.  You cannot for example, I think, call 
yourself a "Christian," in the full sense of following the Christian 
Religion, if you deny the divinity of Christ.  If I remain unconvinced 
regarding any absolute statements about the origin of humanity, the ultimate 
end of life, the existence of the soul or of any God or Gods of any kind, 
and merely follow the societal laws dictating I do not kill, steal, rape, 
impose physical harm, or defraud anyone, because it seems decent and 
compassionate to do so based on my direct feelings as a living human being, 
and not on any eternal absolutes of belief, how can you say I am following a 
Religion?  Having doubt about all the big questions that Religion answers 
does not mean this state of mind itself is a Religion.  For one thing, this 
state of mind does not really deny any Religion totally any more than it 
assents to belief in said Religion.  People who are in a Religion make very 
definite statements about what they believe being the truth, and other 
competing ideologies must be absolutely false, or where is the "Religion" in 
the Religion, if you see my point?  You can claim that there is room for 
doubt in Religious beliefs, and indeed even Christ has his crisis of faith, 
according to the New Testament.  But really now, if you water down the 
definition of Religion to include any and all mindsets to be a "Religion," 
you do not have any meaning to the word "Religion" any longer.

I do not know anyone who follows postmodernism or secular humanism, whatever 
these points of view represent, as a "Religion."  Maybe there are some 
people who try to make a Religion out of these ways of viewing the world, 
but I do not know of any churches of post-modernism or secular humanism.  Do 
you know of any churches following these "Religions" in Moscow?  If there 
are, I might go to one of their services just to see what it is like.  Is 
there a post-modern or secular humanist cable TV channel promoting the 
"Religion" of post-modernism or secular humanism?  I do not know of any.  
There are numerous cable and satellite channels that are Christianity 
24/7!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Every 
Sunday there are Christian Church services on numerous television channels.  
I have NEVER seen a non-Christian religious service on TV in my life that I 
remember, though I know in some large urban markets there probably are other 
religious services televised with the profusion of TV channels.

You could just as well claim that NBA fans are following the "Religion of 
Basketball" when all they do is follow the teams and players and watch games 
and memorize statistics and live and breathe NBA basketball.  So are you 
going to claim we now have a religion called "basketball worship?"  Come on, 
no one would take that seriously.  But people do speak in this manner: "His 
religion is basketball" they will say about a fanatical fan.

Which brings me to another point, your claim that the government in the USA 
is hostile to religion.  I think this is a bit paranoid, if you want my true 
opinion.  There has been an increasing trend in government to truly live up 
to the separation of church and state, but how is the government hostile to 
your religion in a major way?  Here in Moscow Idaho there are Christian 
schools established, and numerous churches, and how is the government 
blocking you from practicing, promoting and following your religion?  I'm 
sure you will come up with examples, because everyone thinks the government 
is against them in some way, including me, no matter what they do in life or 
believe, but I just do not see this "hostility" that you allude to from the 
government against Christianity in any major way.  In fact, I see Christians 
flourishing and having a powerful voice in our society.  The Senate recently 
voted unanimously to oppose the Federal court decision that the words "under 
God" should be removed from the pledge of allegiance.  How is this 
government hostility toward Religion?

I agree that the pledge of allegiance should not have the words "under God," 
by the way.  It is an imposition of government power promoting one religious 
point of view onto children who do not follow that religious viewpoint.  You 
say you do not want to establish government rule by Christianity, but what 
if the pledge of allegiance said "under Allah" or "under Vishnu" or "under 
Buddha?"
I can hear the Christian's scream bloody murder if that 
happened!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  I'm sure you 
back the pledge of allegiance including the words "under God," yet you say 
you do not want to have Christianity as an official government Religion?  
Everyone knows the words "under God" in the pledge of allegiance are a nod 
from the USA government to the majority rule of Christian's in American!!!!! 
  How is this hostile to Christianity?

As to your claim that to ask if someone wants to make Christianity an 
official Religion of the government is to make a "straw man" argument if 
they mean establishing a Christian Ayatollah, I think rather it is a very 
good question, and not a "straw man" argument.  You stated that Religion 
should be involved in government.  OK.  What religion should be involved and 
to what extent?  There is tremendous disagreement on the issues regarding 
the relations between the state and religion that you seem to think you have 
absolute answers to.  First off, there are Islamic believers who do not 
advocate the kind of Islamic state that is in Iran.  And the history of 
Christianity is full of violent impositions of it's rule over people in many 
places in the world, very recently right here in America during the near 
Genocide committed against the Native Americans.  How can you be unaware of 
or forget this?????????????????????????????????????????????  It is a horror 
that Christian Europeans imposed on the populations of the Americas that was 
justified often by the sick logic of Christian salvation of the 
non-believers.  You may not like this way of looking at it, but this is 
indeed what happened!

The Christian Religion has a history of running various governments in the 
world, and still does right now.  Have you forgotten the Vatican?  Hundreds 
of millions of people think the Pope is the true voice of God on earth and 
worship his rulings as though he were a head of state or even more powerful. 
  Certainly the Catholic Pope is one of the most powerful men on earth.  I 
think you are oversimplifying the complexities here.  If you look at the 
history of Europe for the past 2000 years, it is only recently that 
Christianity did not run several governments, and there are many people who 
want to go back to Christian State Rule!

We all pick and chose the facts and theories that back our viewpoint and 
tend to ignore the opposing facts and theories that challenge our viewpoint. 
  Everyone should be required as part of a good education to be able to 
argue convincingly against their most cherished beliefs as an antidote to 
dogmatism and arrogance and to teach tolerance of other points of view.  
This would do much to stop the horrors of war and hatred which are the shame 
of the human race.  If I have a Religion it is nothing more than wanting to 
see humans treat each other and all life with tolerance and friendship and 
respect all over this beautiful planet we call home.  The history of 
"Religions" is scarred with violence and hatred, and indeed we see in the 
middle east, in Ireland and England, in India and Pakistan, both Christian 
and Islamic people and other Religions being at the root of hatred and 
violence.  Not a very inspiring picture for the positive effect of Religion! 
  I do not see any of the major Religions with any moral high ground.  They 
all have committed terrible "Sins."

Ted


>From: "Dale Courtney" <dmcourtn@moscow.com>
>To: <vision2020@moscow.com>
>Subject: Re:  Establishment of Government Religion?
>Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 18:40:49 -0700
>
>Ted writes,
> > You state that "today's Christian political activists.... are simply
> > maintaining that you cannot have good government with out religion."
>First,
> > I do not think you can speak for all of today's Christian activists,
>
>Of course I cannot speak for everyone. There are always people who disagree
>and dissent. However, in the Christian world, you tend to have those who
>think politics is dirty and not right to engage in; and the other side that
>sees involvement as a civic responsibility. Since the latter pull out and
>abdicate, you are left with a smaller playing field.
>
>However, having read the majority of the political activists and having
>worked for some, I can make some broad-brushed generalizations.
>
> > some of
> > whom do want the Federal government to officially make the USA a 
>Christian
> > nation.
>
>There are those who think that civil government is our savior. Some people
>are always derailed.
>
>I have *never* met anyone who advocated setting up a Christian Ayatollah or
>anything similar to what Islam professes. If you know of one, I'd really
>like to hear who it is. Otherwise, it's the standard strawman argument.
>
> >But your statement dodges the issue.
>
>I have nothing to dodge, so let me speak clearly -- and I'm speaking for
>myself and no one else.
>
> > If the religion was Buddhist or Islamic, and the good government was
> > following the principles and practices of these two religious points of
> > view, who do not believe Jesus was the divine Son of God, I imagine you
> > would be very unhappy with this form of "good government with religion."
>
>There is a *significant* theological difference between Islam and
>Christianity. I won't bore you with the technical details, but, as the old
>adage goes, "ideas have consequences." Islam is violently monistic -- and
>that influences everything that they believe and do. So you see consistent
>Islam trying to make everyone the same (dressing the same; thinking the
>same; doing the same; etc) because their theology is that way.
>
>Because of the Christian revelation of the Trinity, there is an
>understanding of both "unity and diversity" -- and both are equally 
>ultimate
>in the Godhead: the one is not ontologically more important that the many.
>
>Christianity understands a separation of church and state -- the church
>doesn't run the state (as it does in Iraq/Iran); and the state doesn't run
>the church (as it does in Europe, for instance). But that doesn't mean that
>the state is overtly hostile to religion (as in the USA today); and neither
>is the church overtly hostile to civil government.
>
> > You want your religion expressed in
> > the government, not anyone else's.  This is why I think the government
> > should stay out of religion as much as it can.  Every religion wants to
> > impose their viewpoint, and government must be fair an impartial to 
>avoid
> > the heavy hand of the law being used to suppress religious activity and
> > thought.
>
>But see, Ted, that's where the crux of the disagreement exits -- and what
>Doug Jones has been addressing. Even atheists have a "religion." *Everyone*
>has a religion -- they may deny it; they may kick and scream that they 
>don't
>(as atheists and agnostics do); but everyone has a religion. In our day 
>it's
>secular humanism and postmodernism. If you read the "Humanist Manifesto I"
>or "II" it reads like a church doctrine with belief and faith elements. In
>fact, atheists have more faith than I do.
>
>And everyone carries those religious presuppositions with him/her into 
>every
>facet of life -- including civil government and legislative decisions.
>
>Dale Courtney
>Moscow, Idaho




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