RE: this applies to Iran and Iraq as well!

["Tom Hansen" <thansen@moscow.com>]

Greetings -

Just one question, Shahab:  What is your suggested alternative course of
action for the US that would guarantee the safety of all US citizens, US
military installations, and US embassies throughout the world?

I read alot of criticism, but no suggestions.

Tom Hansen

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Shahab Mesbah [mailto:meteor2@moscow.com]
>Sent: Friday, September 21, 2001 1:55 AM
>To: Douglas Whitney; TEX
>Cc: vision2020@moscow.com
>Subject: RE: this applies to Iran and Iraq as well!
>
>
>Absolutely... I agree that we need to get rid of the scum on earth. As I
>have stated many times the only people I have ever been prejudice against
>are the fanatical people. I am by no means suggesting that we should let
>them get a way with this. I just do not think our president has the
>perspective and worldliness to understand what he is getting everyone into.
>The Afghany people are Persians in the west with increasing Indian mix in
>the east. They speak a dialect of Persian language. I can understand what
>they say. These are my countrymen. I understand the culture... it
>is my own.
>Just like the Iranian people the Afghany people have no animosity towards
>the US. You see the militant fundamentalists and fanatics in these
>countries. You don't know what it means to live under a tyrant. In this
>country we have safeguards to keep most of that from happening. But in the
>Middle East most of the governments are corrupt. Most of the money
>and power
>is held by the elite who take advantage of the people. US kept the shah of
>Iran in power in fear of communism. When he increased the price of oil US
>got rid of him in favor of their new puppet Khomayni. The whole instability
>in the Middle East was a miscalculation. We have been manipulating
>countries
>for out own benefit. We have put in place tyrannical regimes that can
>control their people with force. This has given fertile ground for
>fanatical
>proliferation all over the region. The whole thing is about cheap oil...
>that is it. Well... we forgot to take other peoples needs in consideration.
>We forgot the basic principle of "do onto others as you wish them
>to do onto
>you". We lost track of the millions that suffered so we could drive our
>SUVs. This is not America... this is not responsible behavior... I
>know this
>is not the way Americans are... I have lived here for over 20
>years and have
>found Americans to be generous and deeply caring bunch! So why is
>it that we
>have ignored the worlds problems for so long? The answer my friends is
>ignorance. Please do not mistake ignorance with stupidity! Ignorance is
>curable... all it takes is education; stupidity is incurable! We as
>Americans must educate ourselves in the ways of the world we live in. the
>time when we could ignore the rest of the world is over. It is time we show
>the world who we really are. The fact is that if the public knew the
>atrocities that the Taliban or the government of Iran or Iraq have been
>committing there would be an outcry to mobilize aid to the people of these
>nations by riding them of their oppressive government, help build their
>democracies and allow them to enjoy the human rights we so often take for
>granted. We do not need to beat the hell out of the people... we need to
>empower them to rebuild their societies. We helped Japan and
>Germany rebuild
>in this way and look at what they have become. This would be far
>cheaper and
>would actually have the desired effect. Why do we have this problem with
>going in and getting rid of tyrannical leaders? Why is it ok to
>kill a whole
>bunch of Iraqi people but we cannot knock Saddam Husain out? What kind of
>backwards, brainless logic is this? Do you really think that the Iraqi
>soldiers are soldiers by choice? Do you really think that the people in
>Afghanistan like to be beaten? Do you think it has anything to do with
>Islam? Please... do not be so naïve... it is all about money, drugs, and
>oil. That is it... the tyrants are getting rich beyond your wildest
>imaginations. The supreme religious ruler of Iran has over $200 million
>dollars in his foreign bank accounts... at a time when the Iranian people
>are increasingly not able to provide for their families. In Afghanistan the
>Taliban is nothing but a drug cartel. They are getting rich also while the
>people of that country are among the worst 3 countries in the world when it
>comes to quality of life. I have hinted that the Afghany war would be like
>the war on drugs... that was the connection I was making. Like the war on
>drugs we will fail because we are not eliminating the problem... we just
>want to put up a good show so the American people feel good that their
>government is trying to do something! We have lost much credibility because
>we keep doing this. The only way to eliminate terrorism is to eliminate its
>cause, which is injustice. Give me justice and I will show you heaven on
>earth! Treat all tyrants the same way... have mercy and compassion for the
>innocent people and you will, in a very short time, have the world proclaim
>you their helper, their savior. Do this and find out what a friend
>is. If we
>go in we need to go in with only one goal... justice for all.
>
>"Your brother in arms"
>Shahab...
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Douglas Whitney [mailto:dwhitney@moscow.com]
>Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2001 11:13 PM
>To: TEX; Shahab Mesbah
>Cc: vision2020@moscow.com
>Subject: Re: this applies to Iran and Iraq as well!
>
>When a smoker gets lung cancer, he has to have some one dig in, find the
>cancer, and kill it. It does not matter that he may have had a part in
>creating the malignancy, as we did with some of our misguided
>foreign policy
>over the last 60 years. This malignancy must now be rooted out and
>killed. I
>pray that we can do it with little or no damage to our peaceful brethren of
>Islam. However, we will certainly have to sacrifice some of our own to get
>the job done.
>
>Doug
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "TEX" <tex@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu>
>To: "Shahab Mesbah" <meteor2@moscow.com>
>Cc: <vision2020@moscow.com>
>Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2001 10:46 PM
>Subject: RE: this applies to Iran and Iraq as well!
>
>
>>
>>
>> I have to agree with Shahab here.  I think it was a fairly sophmoric move
>> on Mr. Walter Steed's part to put words in someones mouth and basically
>> accuse them of being unpatriotic.  If that is really what you got out of
>> this thread Walter (if I may), then I suggest you read it again.
> The U.S.
>> is far from innocent when it comes to the reasons many middle-eastern
>> countries loathe us.  The mass media, as usual, is doing a grandiose job
>> of avoiding all the logical reasons anyone would have for wanting to
>> attack us.  I was really disappointed that all Dan Rather could come up
>> with on the Letterman interview was to categorically call all of the
>> perpetrators of this act "madmen, and who can explain evil?"  There is so
>> much more to it, and he well knows it.  The US practically made
>famous the
>> idea of jihad when it propped up the very person we are now equating with
>> the devil (Bin Laden vs Russia).  Now the govt and the media will attempt
>> to redefine the term jihad into something evil in order to rally support
>> against it.
>>
>>   Alas, we are now already set upon a path, whatever it may be, that the
>> government has laid out.  I doubt any voices of dissension will be heard
>> amongst the gunfire and bombings... and I'm sure the "radical muslim
>> fringe" could use another martyr anyway.
>>
>>            Clint "Tex" Payton
>>        email: tex@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu
>>
>> On Thu, 20 Sep 2001, Shahab Mesbah wrote:
>>
>> > No my friend... I am the one concerned with terrorism here. We can
>> > rationalize our acts just like the fanatics who attacked us last week.
>The
>> > fact remains that we are not without blame ourselves. As for the
>presidents
>> > statement... I agree that if you are not against terrorism then you are
>not
>> > one of us. I just wonder if he realizes that he is becoming a
>terrorist.
>> >
>> > Last week I did not sleep for three days. I cried for days and was
>virtually
>> > dysfunctional all week. I lost family members last week. This
>attack was
>> > very personal. Yet I will not jeopardize the well being of this nation
>> > because of it. In fact I am the patriotic one here. I place myself in
>harms
>> > way and speak against many threats so I can help this
>nation... I resent
>my
>> > patriotism questioned. I have sacrifices much for this country. And I
>will
>> > defend the free speech and human rights to death. I will not follow a
>> > president blindly; I will not follow anyone blindly. The difference
>between
>> > me and those idiots who are brainwashed by their leader to fly an
>airplane
>> > into buildings and kill thousands is precisely that. Fanaticism is
>evil...
>> > it can wrapped in a religious facade... it can me nationalistic in
>nature...
>> > either way it is evil and thus will cause nothing but pain and anguish.
>> >
>> > And I am as always "Your brother in arms"
>> >
>> > Shahab...
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: WMSteed@aol.com [mailto:WMSteed@aol.com]
>> > Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2001 8:27 PM
>> > To: meteor2@moscow.com; thansen@moscow.com; vision2020@moscow.com;
>> > goodallj@earthlink.net
>> > Subject: Re: this applies to Iran and Iraq as well!
>> >
>> > In a message dated 9/20/01 7:04:29 PM, meteor2@moscow.com writes:
>> >
>> > << there is only one way to eliminate terrorism. Once
>> > you eliminate the cause... you will eliminate the symptoms. >>
>> >
>> > The following was filed by Reuters today re former Israel
>Prime Minister
>> > Netanyahu's remarks before a congressional committee.
>> >
>> > "He said the ultimate goal of Islamic militants, emboldened by their
>victory
>> > in Afghanistan over the former Soviet Union, was the destruction of the
>> > United States. Any signs of weakness in retaliating for the hijack
>attacks
>> > that left more than 6,500 people dead or missing will be seen as
>> > encouragement for more strikes, he said.
>> >
>> > "Unless they are stopped now, their attacks will continue, and become
>even
>> > more lethal in the future," Netanyahu said.
>> >
>> > Some states that support such groups already have access to biological
>and
>> > chemical weapon capabilities, he said, and could one day soon gain
>access to
>> > rudimentary nuclear bombs.
>> >
>> > But once such groups learn that the United States will not withdraw in
>fear
>> > but instead will strike back hard, he said, "then you will see this
>danger
>> > recede.""
>> >
>> > He also said something to the effect that people who try to analyze
>these
>> > people and their motives just don't understand the gravity of their
>acts.
>> >
>> > If they are upset that we went into Saudi Arabia to free one of our
>partner
>> > countries from Iraq occupation, that cannot be reversed; it happened.
>If
>> > they are upset that we live in houses and not caves and despise our
>> > prosperity, then I know of no American who would give up his
>standard of
>> > living expecting them to stop their barbaric attacks and adopt us as
>their
>> > friends. Personally, I have no interest in winning the friendship of
>people
>> > who have done what they have done.
>> >
>> > <<If you think that we can make a
>> > bubble of security around us and ignore everyone else you are sadly
>> > mistaken. What happens on the other side of the world will affect you
>> > here.>>
>> >
>> > We do not attempt to ignore every one else.  These terrorists are
>against
>> > everyone who is not like themselves and anything we can do to stop them
>> > before they nuke or attack with chemical or biological weapons Paris,
>Rome,
>> > Sidney, Moscow, London, etc., will be to the benefit of civilization.
>> >
>> > I'm not sure what "Your brother in arms" is intended to convey, but the
>> > President reiterated tonight before Congress, "If you are not with us
>> > against
>> > terrorism, you are against us."  To not support the U.S. and its chosen
>> > course of action in this fight is to turn a blind eye to the potential
>of
>> > even greater devastation in the future.
>> >
>> > Walter Steed
>> >
>>
>